We have an early model 356 with the struts going from an area just above and between two fixed ports and the mast. Early on, cracks developed in the fiberglass towards the upper part of the associated chain plate. This problem was taken care of under warrantee. We were told that Hunter either later changed, or made a mistake regarding the appropriate fiberglass material to use in this area. Ours was redone and the fix seemed to be ok. Yesterday, I noticed that there are new cracks below the chain plate. These cracks are horizontal and run between the two ports, but not all the way across. In looking at the new 36 (a 356 with some changes) I note that one substantial change has been made to the way that Hunter anchors this particular mast support. I will be talking with my commisioning crew regarding these issues. In the meantime I would appreciate any feedback that the forum can provide. In particular I would like to know if any of these cracks have appeared in any other 356's and what the resolution has been. I know that the original cracks have shown up for a few of you, because I have seen that discussion before. Thanks for your help. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
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Dan, our 356 (#198) hasn't shown any signs of cracking (yet!). however, I share the suspicion that the struts don't support the mast, they support the chainplates-and i made a point of making sure that they were tight from day 1
support
Chuck, If I understand you, the struts place a downward force on the chain plate which helps it carry the upward load of the rigging. Had not thought of it that way, but it does make some sense. The cracks are indicative of an upward load on the chain plates. I'll take a look at the struts next visit to the boat. Thanks you very much for your thoughts. Still interested in any other 356 owners experience. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Chuck, If I understand you, the struts place a downward force on the chain plate which helps it carry the upward load of the rigging. Had not thought of it that way, but it does make some sense. The cracks are indicative of an upward load on the chain plates. I'll take a look at the struts next visit to the boat. Thanks you very much for your thoughts. Still interested in any other 356 owners experience. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
356 struts
Dan, for whatever reason, Hunter doesn't have any support beyond the deck laminate for the inner stay chainplate-unlike the outers which are supported on the hull. I got curious because the early literature from Hunter only listed the struts for the reg main, not for the in-mast furling mast-a larger section. I was surprised when our boat was delivered with the struts, and started asking questions. Note that on the 36 the lowers aren't on the cabin top anymore.
Dan, for whatever reason, Hunter doesn't have any support beyond the deck laminate for the inner stay chainplate-unlike the outers which are supported on the hull. I got curious because the early literature from Hunter only listed the struts for the reg main, not for the in-mast furling mast-a larger section. I was surprised when our boat was delivered with the struts, and started asking questions. Note that on the 36 the lowers aren't on the cabin top anymore.
Inner chain plate
Chuck, I was surprised also, because it was my assumption also that with the furling main, we would not have the struts. It appears that the chain plate itself is rather small. If it went further down the side of the deck (between the ports) it appears that the loads would be better distributed over the associated laminates. Have you seen the inner stay supports on the new 36? Very different. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Chuck, I was surprised also, because it was my assumption also that with the furling main, we would not have the struts. It appears that the chain plate itself is rather small. If it went further down the side of the deck (between the ports) it appears that the loads would be better distributed over the associated laminates. Have you seen the inner stay supports on the new 36? Very different. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Do one (or more) of you guys have a photo?
Some of us, like me, have never understood the strut concept. Seems very strange. Are they there because Hunter chose to let the deck support the chain plates?
Some of us, like me, have never understood the strut concept. Seems very strange. Are they there because Hunter chose to let the deck support the chain plates?
Picture
Fred, I have attached a picture of Feije II. You can see the struts running from the deck up to the mast. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Fred, I have attached a picture of Feije II. You can see the struts running from the deck up to the mast. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
So,,,, the only purpose of the struts seem to be
to hold the deck down. What other reason could there be? Strut equipped boats must not have a rod from the chain plate to the hull (internally)to carry the structural load of the spar. Right?
to hold the deck down. What other reason could there be? Strut equipped boats must not have a rod from the chain plate to the hull (internally)to carry the structural load of the spar. Right?
Maybe so
Fred, Logically it seems that Wayne might be right about that. The horizontal cracks are hairline and are located below the chain plate. If the struts are designed to hold the deck and chain plate down, it makes sense that cracks might occur below if the struts were not tight enough. I had not really thought of it in that way before. I'm not anxious to get down to the boat to check how tight the struts are. It is an hour away so might not make it until the weekend. Is anyone on here familiar enough with rigging to comment? Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Fred, Logically it seems that Wayne might be right about that. The horizontal cracks are hairline and are located below the chain plate. If the struts are designed to hold the deck and chain plate down, it makes sense that cracks might occur below if the struts were not tight enough. I had not really thought of it in that way before. I'm not anxious to get down to the boat to check how tight the struts are. It is an hour away so might not make it until the weekend. Is anyone on here familiar enough with rigging to comment? Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Dan, Another thing I just found on your boat is
the clam shell over your anchor locker drain hole. I've been looking for one for a year.
And Hunter has 'em. Anyway, The inner chain plate holds the lower diagonals. The uppers are secured to the hull at the rail. So that means your genoa sheets have to go between the shrouds. That means no large Genoas or you couldn't point. And that's the way your rigged. Wow, did Hunter provide a WINCH? They probably set your boat up to use the cabin top winch for the control lines. Wow, but I'm a traditionalist. When it comes to masts, I like masthead rigs. Let's race. How's she run?
the clam shell over your anchor locker drain hole. I've been looking for one for a year.
And Hunter has 'em. Anyway, The inner chain plate holds the lower diagonals. The uppers are secured to the hull at the rail. So that means your genoa sheets have to go between the shrouds. That means no large Genoas or you couldn't point. And that's the way your rigged. Wow, did Hunter provide a WINCH? They probably set your boat up to use the cabin top winch for the control lines. Wow, but I'm a traditionalist. When it comes to masts, I like masthead rigs. Let's race. How's she run?Inner Chain Plates
Fred, What I'm curious about is the role of the struts. Do they support the mast in some way. or are they actually holding down the inner chain plates as Wayne suggested. If so, that could explain the cracking I'm getting between the ports and below the chain plates. Yes the sheets do come between the shrouds. I have 4 cabin top winches (ST 40's dedicated to the jib sheets, and St 30's to handle everything else). I also have two spinnaker winches mounted on the cockpit comming. Have not raced the boat except for one race this past weekend. No wind, we never got more than two miles from the start line. Otherwise it is adequate for our needs. I might change out the three blade prop for a folding at some point, but it is a lower priority than some other things. We do have a cruising spinnaker and have experimented with it twice. Both times winds were under 8 knots, so still early to tell how much difference it will make. Interestingly, I was able to go wing on wing with it for a pretty long run the first time we used it. Dead down wind. That was nice. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Fred, What I'm curious about is the role of the struts. Do they support the mast in some way. or are they actually holding down the inner chain plates as Wayne suggested. If so, that could explain the cracking I'm getting between the ports and below the chain plates. Yes the sheets do come between the shrouds. I have 4 cabin top winches (ST 40's dedicated to the jib sheets, and St 30's to handle everything else). I also have two spinnaker winches mounted on the cockpit comming. Have not raced the boat except for one race this past weekend. No wind, we never got more than two miles from the start line. Otherwise it is adequate for our needs. I might change out the three blade prop for a folding at some point, but it is a lower priority than some other things. We do have a cruising spinnaker and have experimented with it twice. Both times winds were under 8 knots, so still early to tell how much difference it will make. Interestingly, I was able to go wing on wing with it for a pretty long run the first time we used it. Dead down wind. That was nice. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Dan, I'm the wrong guy to ask. I know nothing of
the strut equipped boats. I'm asking too. One thing though, wing and wing means using both working sails downwind, one on each side of the boat. Flying the chute is just that. But hey, have fun! Oh, I've been in Sausalito. Tied up right next to West Marines' ProMotion. It was in the center of the waterfront. Where are you?
the strut equipped boats. I'm asking too. One thing though, wing and wing means using both working sails downwind, one on each side of the boat. Flying the chute is just that. But hey, have fun! Oh, I've been in Sausalito. Tied up right next to West Marines' ProMotion. It was in the center of the waterfront. Where are you?
I Thought The Struts Were
to provide mast support to enable the use of a smaller, lighter section and were not needed on the larger and heavier section mast-furling options. If that's the case, it shouldn't have anything to do with compression or lifting loads, just lateral stabilization. I'll bet someone on this board explored this matter with their new Hunter. Let's here from you. Rick D.
to provide mast support to enable the use of a smaller, lighter section and were not needed on the larger and heavier section mast-furling options. If that's the case, it shouldn't have anything to do with compression or lifting loads, just lateral stabilization. I'll bet someone on this board explored this matter with their new Hunter. Let's here from you. Rick D.
Fred, we live in the Napa Valley,
but we have the boats(thats right 2), in Alameda. We kept one in Sausalito for about a year, but that was several years ago now. Rick, That was my original understanding too, so I was surprised when the boat was delivered with the struts. But if they are not necessary, and do not contribute to the chain plates in any way, I still have the cracks that are showing up. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
but we have the boats(thats right 2), in Alameda. We kept one in Sausalito for about a year, but that was several years ago now. Rick, That was my original understanding too, so I was surprised when the boat was delivered with the struts. But if they are not necessary, and do not contribute to the chain plates in any way, I still have the cracks that are showing up. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
that's why I couldn't find your boat !I was in sausalito yesterday and almost went looking for you!
seriously, unlike some earlier Hunters, the 356 does not have an internal support rod anchoring the inner chainplate to the hull, so the upward tension on the plate would pull the hull up unless opposed-the strut (I think) serves to create a stiffening triangle and transfer the loads back to the mast. Fred is correct, the sheets go between the stays-this allows very tight sheeting angles, but limits the jib size. when I had Doyle build me new sails, we maxed the jib-we were able to add almost a foot on the hoist, and with a slight leach hollow were able to make a 120% jib with out hitting anything, that plus the swingbatten made a huge improvement in light air performance. gave me a much better shape when furled(better cloth, better cut), and eliminated the leach flutter completely. We also fly a Doyle assymetrical, but usually tack downwind vs going dead downwind.Do you get here often?
Chuck, If you get out here occasionally, let me know, maybe we can do a little day sail on the bay. I'm going to follow-up this next week on the struts based on the discussion so far. My comments regarding using the Asym dead downwind and wing on wing stemmed from my surprise at how well it worked. As everyone points out, the fractional Hunters with swept spreader don't do dead downwind that well. Sometimes, from just north of the bay bridge all the way back to Alameda (Ballena Bay side) is a nice straight run ahead of a mild wind. Doing it wing on wing is fun and a quiet relaxing end to a day of serious sailing in the slot. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Chuck, If you get out here occasionally, let me know, maybe we can do a little day sail on the bay. I'm going to follow-up this next week on the struts based on the discussion so far. My comments regarding using the Asym dead downwind and wing on wing stemmed from my surprise at how well it worked. As everyone points out, the fractional Hunters with swept spreader don't do dead downwind that well. Sometimes, from just north of the bay bridge all the way back to Alameda (Ballena Bay side) is a nice straight run ahead of a mild wind. Doing it wing on wing is fun and a quiet relaxing end to a day of serious sailing in the slot. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Dan, if you're trying to make us feel bad, I saw
the weather report last night. The Bay is as cold as the Sound. naner-naner.
the weather report last night. The Bay is as cold as the Sound. naner-naner.
More...
Here are a couple of thoughts, although I don't know that they produce any answers. The struts are compression struts, not tension. (If they were tension, they'd be stays.) So, force is being transmitted from one end to the other. The question is which end. Also, the B&R folks describe the struts as a means to reduce mast section, as someone else had mentioned earlier. That indicates force from the mast being pushed down onto the deck. All of which leaves us about where we started. The struts are pushing down on the chainplates. The inner shrouds are pulling up on the chainplates. It appears the forces were somehow designed to balance each other? (Again, as suggested by others.) But if this is so, then I suppose the thought is that no tie rod, etc., is needed to reinforce the chain plate, because the force exerted up or down by the 'plate itself is essentially neutral. Under this theory, the cabin top anchors the 'plate but doesn't support a load. This doesn't sound very comforting, however, when you consider how much force the 'plate is supposed to be balancing, and what happens if there is even a slight imbalance. A ripout? A sickening crunch through the cabin roof? Speculating further, I guess in one sense this arrangement means that force/tension from the inner shroud is being routed back up the strut and to the mast and then -- where? Down to the mast step? Idle musings for a snowy Friday afternoon. I haven't noticed any cracks on my cabin top, but I'll sure be checking when the snow clears. --pb
Here are a couple of thoughts, although I don't know that they produce any answers. The struts are compression struts, not tension. (If they were tension, they'd be stays.) So, force is being transmitted from one end to the other. The question is which end. Also, the B&R folks describe the struts as a means to reduce mast section, as someone else had mentioned earlier. That indicates force from the mast being pushed down onto the deck. All of which leaves us about where we started. The struts are pushing down on the chainplates. The inner shrouds are pulling up on the chainplates. It appears the forces were somehow designed to balance each other? (Again, as suggested by others.) But if this is so, then I suppose the thought is that no tie rod, etc., is needed to reinforce the chain plate, because the force exerted up or down by the 'plate itself is essentially neutral. Under this theory, the cabin top anchors the 'plate but doesn't support a load. This doesn't sound very comforting, however, when you consider how much force the 'plate is supposed to be balancing, and what happens if there is even a slight imbalance. A ripout? A sickening crunch through the cabin roof? Speculating further, I guess in one sense this arrangement means that force/tension from the inner shroud is being routed back up the strut and to the mast and then -- where? Down to the mast step? Idle musings for a snowy Friday afternoon. I haven't noticed any cracks on my cabin top, but I'll sure be checking when the snow clears. --pb
A bunch of pictures of Hunters Child is in the
latest Cruising World that arrived this week. I guess if you know what you are doing, the struts work. And Steve sure knows what he is doing. If there is a problem, it might be Hunter communicating between their engineering department and their marketing people. If the customers don't know, well, what we might have here is a break down of communications. Sorry, I liked that movie. There is another thread running right now about interior size. The wider the interior of the boat, the more appealing in the 'showroom'. The trade off? No storage. But getting the tie rod out of the interior makes the inside look even bigger. Is this working for Hunter? Are the latest products built this way? I don't know and it troubles me that Hunter would market to sailors (or would be sailors) in this way. Sorry, some thoughts on a SUNNY DAY. I'm outta here!
latest Cruising World that arrived this week. I guess if you know what you are doing, the struts work. And Steve sure knows what he is doing. If there is a problem, it might be Hunter communicating between their engineering department and their marketing people. If the customers don't know, well, what we might have here is a break down of communications.
Sorry, I liked that movie. There is another thread running right now about interior size. The wider the interior of the boat, the more appealing in the 'showroom'. The trade off? No storage. But getting the tie rod out of the interior makes the inside look even bigger. Is this working for Hunter? Are the latest products built this way? I don't know and it troubles me that Hunter would market to sailors (or would be sailors) in this way. Sorry, some thoughts on a SUNNY DAY. I'm outta here!The Sound
I want to thank everyone for the response on this topic. I feel a little better informed and that will make my discussions with the commissioning crew, and perhaps Hunter, more productive. Fred, One of these days I'll have to get up that way and see how the sailing is. I've spent a little time in the area but only on the sound on ferrys. Most visits were flying visits and I think in all those trips, I was IFR everytime except for one. The Sound was very pretty that day. I have a neighbor headed up there for two weeks of sailing sometime in May I think. I'll know more when he gets back. Around here, the winter temperatures often seem more moderate than in the summer because the winds tend to be less in the winter. I went sailing on Saturday and was down to a tee shirt while I was working the sails, light longsleeves otherwise. Down side was we didn't get far from the less than 7 knots of wind. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
I want to thank everyone for the response on this topic. I feel a little better informed and that will make my discussions with the commissioning crew, and perhaps Hunter, more productive. Fred, One of these days I'll have to get up that way and see how the sailing is. I've spent a little time in the area but only on the sound on ferrys. Most visits were flying visits and I think in all those trips, I was IFR everytime except for one. The Sound was very pretty that day. I have a neighbor headed up there for two weeks of sailing sometime in May I think. I'll know more when he gets back. Around here, the winter temperatures often seem more moderate than in the summer because the winds tend to be less in the winter. I went sailing on Saturday and was down to a tee shirt while I was working the sails, light longsleeves otherwise. Down side was we didn't get far from the less than 7 knots of wind. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
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