Tragic boat sinking on 4th of July

[alexco38]

With all things sh?t does happen.

The skipper might have brought that many people out before many times but nothing happen, but just this once.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Those kids might have lived if the boat hadn't taken them down with it.

Didn't they say something like that about the Titanic?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

To what end do all of our comments come to ...

Sure, it may feel good to point your finger at one guy and say "there's the idiot - it's his fault". But what good does that do? Was he really responsible? He was just driving the boat. He has no training, he has no authority in the sense of a licensed Captain. Who invited all those people? Was the owner responsible for inviting all those people? Did some people come along on a secondary invitation from an invited guest? We don't know those answers. Obviously, you can't blame the kids, but plenty of adults got on the boat to go 3 miles off-shore and they had no reason to trust either the boat driver, the owner of the boat, or the boat. So if they had no reason to trust any of these, aren't they accountable for their own mis-judgement? I think the operator is essentially no different than any of the passengers, except that by their own consensus, they thought he was the best boat driver among them.

I hear the moral outrage and I feel the same way. But to what end will any of this come to when there doesn't seem to be anything definitive to hold anybody accountable? I'm trying to undestand what good it does to point our finger at one person, when there doesn't seem to be any path to accountability.

What are they going to do with the boat? Are they going to "test" the boat to demonstrate the instabilty with 27 people on board? What good will that do ... it's too late. "They" (whoever's jurisdiction this will fall under - and that doesn't even seem clear to me) won't hold somebody accountable after the fact.

Maybe somebody can explain exactly who is accountable, under what authority, and what will be the outcome, punishment, consequences or repercussions. I'm still thinking that there isn't a legitimate case to be made against one person (despite the silly appearance of 27 fat reproductions in a distorted perspective of the boat).

There never will be any accountability in these cases until changes are made by some authority which will impact the entire boating community. If it makes us feel good to point our finger and say "look at the idiot", is that really good enough?

I'm actually agreeing with Sail 123, do we want accountability, or are we happy to let these tragedies happen as long as they don't affect those of us who are much smarter.

 

[tommays]

Not much of a writer

BUT my 27 year old is and ADA in Suffolk County so i do get to ask good questions when stuff happens like seemingly bizarre jury verdicts and the right stuff never makes the paper.

The ADAs don't pull stuff out of the air and this year they had my son spend one week in accident reconstruction school so he would be better equipped to debunk paid expert defense witnesses.

The authority in this case is Nassau County IF you look at a chart the borders are rather bizarre and they would have been back in Suffolk in 2 to 3 minutes ?

So we have three dead children and BEFORE arresting anybody or doing anything all the facts possible are being collected nothing more nothing less.

NASSAU HAS BROKEN A LOT OF GROUND in holding people responsible for there actions in both DWI murder and Crazy reckless street racing stuff that resulted in your Mom and Dad being DEAD

By doing things like getting the ECM data to prove they were going 129 MPH when they killed your Mom and Dad it can be done on FACTS not emotions

In general people are tired of reckless stuff being written off as accidents

 

[jviss]

Not necessarily true. My father-in-laws Etap 39 has a cored hull that will keep the boat afloat if holed.

The Etap is an anomaly. Very, very few large boats were ever built and billed as 'unsinkable,' and there are experts who doubt Etap's claims. Nearly all big boats do not have positive flotation.

 

[FourPoints]

in The Time It Took Us To Make This Huge Thread:

-------------------------------------

Several Fathers Forgot Their Babies To Cook In Their Hot Cars, Baking In The Sun.

One Bright College Boy Tossed Himself Off His 11 Story Dorm Building With A 5 Page Suicide Note Saying He Could Not Tolerate Life Anymore With Uncontrollable Blushing Of His Face In Public.

Fifteen People Called 911 Because The Drive Thru Got The Order Wrong.

A Homeowner Had To Tear Down His New House He Just Built Because It Was Ten Feet Too Far To The Left And City Code Would Not Allow It.

Several People Died From Police Tazzering Them.

Wife Keeps Dead Husband In Home Years So She Has Someone To Watch Nascar With On Tv.

-------------------------------------


Do We Really Want To Live In A World Where Big Brother Sets Laws After Laws In An Effort To Protect Every Possible Accident, Mishap, Error, Or Act Of Bad Judgment?

We Live In A World Where People Die. Plain And Simple. While The Deaths Of Those Children Was Tragic, Stupidly Goes On, Life Goes On.

More Laws In My Life To Protect Me From Myself? Will That Really Increase The Quality Of My Life?

My thoughts on mandating warning placards on everything...

 

[jackhartjr]

Several people died from police tazzering them. Where did this information come from? And do you really believe it?
Jack

 

[justsomeguy]

Several people died from police tazzering them. Where did this information come from? And do you really believe it?
Jack

Google news

 

[SEMIJim]

My thoughts on mandating warning placards on everything...
View attachment 54324

I'd vote for it.

Jim

 

[jviss]

Sure, it may feel good to point your finger at one guy and say "there's the idiot - it's his fault". But what good does that do? Was he really responsible?

Scott, I can't believe you persist in this view that no one is responsible. So, just to test that, please give me one example where there was a death, other than murder or during the commission of a felony, where someone was individually responsible, and should be punished. OR, do you reject the principles of negligence, irresponsible action, or even ignorance as making one culpable? If so, then at least I'll know where you're coming from (though never agree).

In this case you seem to hold the manufacturer responsible. Is that so? Because of deceptive marketing, or some product defect or fault?

Thanks,

jv

 

[Tim R.]

The Etap is an anomaly. Very, very few large boats were ever built and billed as 'unsinkable,' and there are experts who doubt Etap's claims. Nearly all big boats do not have positive flotation.

Actually the etap has been certified by Lloyd's. I never said many large boats have this feature. I am just saying it is possible.

And for the record, I am not a fan of these boats but I think they have clearly designed something that may appeal to some. Anyhow, most boats are destroyed by act of God or fire, not sinking.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

jviss, I surely most be failing in making my point clear...

I certainly don't have a problem finding an individual quilty for being negligent when the case can be made. If I'm driving while drunk and kill a child, there is a clear-cut path to my conviction for whatever the law says I'm guilty of.

In this case, the boat operator doesn't even have to be licensed to operate the boat. He isn't required to know the capacity of the boat, and he doesn't seem to be legally responsible for safeguarding any of the people on the boat. From a moral sense, I agree with everybody. But there seems to be a huge void in the legal responsibilities of recreational boat operators in circumstances such as this. We can all agree that there are laws against operating a boat under the influence of drugs and alcohol, with legal consequence for violating the law. But the operator wasn't impaired as far as we know.

How is this different from a bunch of people going out in the sound on a Sunfish, knowing full well that they are bound to capsize the small boat, even that they want to capsize it so they can go for a swim? Somebody could drown, and it would be considered a tragic accident with no negligence, even if the life jackets were found attached to the boat. I know it sounds like a far-fetched anecdote but there doesn't seem to be any law or authority that makes it a criminal case if a much larger boat capsizes, even if it were overloaded, because the standard for overloading, nor the law against overloading isn't stated anywhere that I know of.

In fact, the manufacturers don't even seem to want to know what the capacity of their boats are, and if they do, they keep it a secret. The recommended capacity in an owners manual is really a useless figure. It doesn't seem to carry any legal weight, unless somebody could cite a case where a recommended capacity was used to hold an individual quilty of negligence, with punishement metered out.

I understand that the variable conditions on waterways may make it virtually impossible to hold a steadfast capacity, but they must do it for ferries and other types of commercial watercraft.

The fact that 27 people just seems to be a ridiculous act of neglect really just camoflages the real problem in my mind that there doesn't seem to be any authority to act for accountability in this case or even other cases that may have various shades of gray.

I don't necessarily fault manufacturers. But I also don't understand why they seem to be given a pass for having any accountability for disclosing capacity other than offering a "recommended" capacity limit (which they may not even be required to do), which probably has no legal authority. I don't really know anything about boat building so I am not claiming any kind of negligence. I can only offer my opinion. It would be helpful if somebody could explain what responsibilites boat builders have for capacity and stability.

 

[Winkfish]

You've got two separate means of holding someone responsible. Criminal case - most states have a negligent homicide law. The burden is high, beyond a reasonable doubt, but that could likely be what the captain could be charged with, if they find enough to do that. Civil case - lower burden of proof - more likely than not. This would be where they try to hold the captain, his employer (presumably the owner), the manufacturer, etc. liable.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Scott's point seems to be that the boat manufacturers should be responsbile in boating accidents. Isn't that like saying gun manufacturers should be sued because guns are used to kill people?

The Federal Safe Boating Act of 1971 (possibly updated) covers negligent operation of vessels, and provides for both criminal and civil penalties. [From Chapman's]

Another analogy would be to blame car manufacturers for vehicle accidents. I simply don't remember what Ralph Nader's Unsafe at Any Speed campaign did and what happened with the Ford Pinto or some of the early SUV rollover cases.

It seems to go back to basic law about the responsibility of the users compared to those of the builders.

It would also be interesting to better understand why capacity plates are on only smaller boats.

I think tommay's son's approach is a good one. Let's find out the facts.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

No that's not my point ...

I still must be failing ... I'm saying that if the capacity of a boat is a closely guarded secret, perhaps they share some responsibility when the capacity is abused, because the capacity has not been disclosed to the victims. Obviously, you can't count on a recreational boat operator (you can't call him "Captain" because that is not what he is) to know the capacity. I don't consider a recommended capacity in an owners manual as a useful tool for legal authority or action.

BTW, that's fine with me if everybody wants "regulators" to stay off our backs. I just find that there is no point in condemning a guy for stupid mis-judgement, if you don't want any regulatory authority to condemn him. If you DO want some regulatory or police authority to condemn him, then there has to be a statute.

Also, If the boat has a capacity plate, and the person responsible for placing persons on the boat through invitation and willful concealment of the capacity, then the manufacturer should be protected, no?

 

[jackhartjr]

I drive a truck, a very nice truck as a matter of fact. It has no capacity plate either. I can put me and one more in the two seats. It has two beds, one sleeps two, the other one. I can also put one more person between the seats, and another three or so in the space in front of the beds. Now I have 9 folks in the truck. If I have an accident and folks are killed, do you sue Peterbilt for not putting a capacity plate on it?
Come on Scott! 27 folks was stupid! I assure you had I been the guy operating the boat and that many folks showed up, invited or not, I would have at some point said no, some of you have to stay at the dock. WAY before 27!
Jack

 

[tommays]

Scott brings up a few very good points and until my son started the ADA job I thought the laws were a bit better

BUT for the most part we have chosen to keep bad decisions that kill people in civil rather than criminal court


We have animal abuse laws that carry more punshiment than child abuse ?


I can also sadly say that swimming pools on long island are again way ahead in 2012 child deaths with equally bad adult decisions

 

[alexco38]

For crying out laud. They even have capacity sign in restaurant and theaters.
At least in our city they do.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I finally call Uncle!

I can sense a big hurray from the gallery! Jack, you're right, let's point our finger at the idiot and puff out our chest to exclaim that we would never make a mistake like that.

Let's continue to ignore the issue that there are probably no mechanisms in place to prevent recreational boats of that size from being overloaded, nor does there seem to be any consequences for irresponsible behavior. Let's exclaim that somebody should throw the book at the irresponsible captain and ignore the problem that there doesn't seem to be a book to throw at him. We don't want regulators to be on our back, so let's just make noise to ridicule the poor fellow so it looks like we care. Does that sound reasonable?

 

[UPSGUY]

In my imagination if a responsible legal authority had seen the vessel before the accident overloaded as it was they would have intervened. Unsafe operation of a vehicle is grounds enough to stop somebody.
Even if it was only to tell them that what they where doing was a really bad idea.
I went for a walk on the beach tonight about 3/4 a mile from where this happened. The water was so still and the night so quiet. What a horrible thing to happen to that family. I hope and pray that they can all find some peace.