Tragic boat sinking on 4th of July

[jviss]

I posted a reply, but on second thought, I give up. This discussion has become pointless.

 

[Sail123]

I posted a reply, but on second thought, I give up. This discussion has become pointless.

To a degree you are correct, to a degree you are wrong.

Pointless to pay our respects to the kids and families? Pointless to point out safety issues so this does not happen to anyone reading here?

It is pointless to pick sides as if this were a high school debate assignment, which is how some of this thread reads.

Anyone debating the merits of what amounts to a double decker bus on water, a 34 foot boat with 27 people on board with seating for 10 has a loss ahead of him, debate wise.

Personally I think putting ten adults on a boat that size and going out on a three hour cruse, is still to many Gillian was smart enough to stop at 5 plus two crew.

 

[anchorclanker]

Does anyone read anyones comments? Ive asked three times, what about the USCG capacity formula of length times width, divided by 15. 34 foot long by 14 wide, divided by 15, the USCG allows 31 people aboard that boat.

Many of you are out to hang the guy, and maybe rightly so, but if the USCG cant say 27 people are too many on that boat, who here has more knowledge or authority than they? I am not arguing its right, but you cant hang the man if the highest authority backs him up.

I have been searching for all kinds of information. I have seen many smaller boats with what I consider to be ridiculously high passenger capacity plates issued by the USCG. I was just aboard a 24 foot pontoon showing a capacity of 12, and it had an upper deck complete with ladder and railings for people to stand on. Ive seen these things so loaded down the toons are almost submerged. While by official USCG standards the boat is NOT overloaded, many clearly are IMHO.

Do a google of party barges and pontoons, many boats are clearly overloaded. Yet some of the pics are straight from the manufacturer. Me thinks the USCG is in bed with the boat builders to help them sell fun. Unfortunately, it doesnt always turn out that way. Heres a few I thought looked like trouble.

 

[Sail123]

I count more than 30 on here.

That math formula comes out to 17 people on my 32 foot sailboat. That would be 3 people sleeping in a berth. That formula would not work on my boat and I know of another boat it did not work on, with three dead.

 

[SEMIJim]

Yeah, I'm going to hang the "captain" and the owner for this one. Some things need warnings. For example: It is reasonable to warn consumers that a certain medication may have certain side-effects. It is reasonable to warn consumers that getting the wrong bit of a running chain saw on the wood will result in Very Bad Things. Other things are so blatantly obvious, to any but the terminally stupid, that no warning is required. Putting 27 people on a Silverton 34 falls into the latter category, IMO. It would be alike operating an electric hair dryer while taking a bath. Gee, electricity and water are a bad mix, who'd have thought that?

We, as a society, by insisting the government, or somebody else, anybody else, do our thinking for us and take responsibility for our failure to think, to contemplate the possible consequences of our decisions and actions, are becoming increasingly stupid. As a society: We're regressing.

Jim

 

[Maine Sail]

Does anyone read anyones comments? Ive asked three times, what about the USCG capacity formula of length times width, divided by 15. 34 foot long by 14 wide, divided by 15, the USCG allows 31 people aboard that boat.

Many of you are out to hang the guy, and maybe rightly so, but if the USCG cant say 27 people are too many on that boat, who here has more knowledge or authority than they? I am not arguing its right, but you cant hang the man if the highest authority backs him up.

I have been searching for all kinds of information. I have seen many smaller boats with what I consider to be ridiculously high passenger capacity plates issued by the USCG. I was just aboard a 24 foot pontoon showing a capacity of 12, and it had an upper deck complete with ladder and railings for people to stand on. Ive seen these things so loaded down the toons are almost submerged. While by official USCG standards the boat is NOT overloaded, many clearly are IMHO.

Do a google of party barges and pontoons, many boats are clearly overloaded. Yet some of the pics are straight from the manufacturer. Me thinks the USCG is in bed with the boat builders to help them sell fun. Unfortunately, it doesnt always turn out that way. Heres a few I thought looked like trouble.

That formula Length X Beam / 15 is an old formula used as very rough guidance for SMALLER BOATS. This is NOT the formula that boat builders are held to for determining safe capacity for recreational boats and is definitely NOT what is used for USCG inspected passenger vessels. The formula is a pretty outdated and can be a dangerous "guide".

It was only ever intended to be an "estimate" for small outboard powered boats.. It should not be applied to vessels over 24' feet long. As we know it is simply not appropriate to apply that antiquated "guesstimate" formula to larger vessels and I also see it INCORRECTLY APPLIED as it has been in this thread..

That formula is also really intended to be used for length at waterline (LWL) and beam at waterline (BWL), what really matters, not length over all and beam over all. I would guess the 34' Silverton has an LWL closer to 28' and BWL closer to 11' which would give that boat 20 passengers, if the formula was applied correctly.. That boat has a LONG bow over hang with anchor platform that should not be included in that formula..

Again the manufacturer thinks 10 people is a safe load and that took me 30 seconds to find. Anyone even considering that many people should at the very least try and determine safe loading. A quick phone call to Luhrs/Hunter Marine group would have been the wise thing to do seeing as the doors are still open there..

BTW the USCG formulas for determining safe loading for boats under 20' and "inspected" vessels are not even close to that formula...

BTW here is the actual formula for safe loading/maximum displacement:
Safe Loading - Subpart C
Calculation of Maximum Displacement

Simpson’s Rule: This is a method used to calculate the volume of odd-shaped objects. It is based on dividing the object into stations, finding some specific dimensions, and then applying a series of multiplier factors to come up with the volume of the object. Later in this section we will discuss this system and include blank forms for the calculations, as well as including an example.
The actual dimensions used in this formula can be obtained from either:

• Hull lines drawings;
• Measuring a hull mold; or
• Measuring a boat.

Hull Lines Drawings: You can establish the static float-plane and all the sections as required by Simpson’s Rule on the hull lines drawings, and then figure the section areas with a planimeter; or you can measure the vertical dimensions at the proper stations directly from the drawings, and compute the volume as per the worksheet below.
Measuring a Hull Mold: You can also measure a hull mold by establishing the float-plane. Install a string along the centerline, establish all the sections, and enter all measurements on the work sheet. This is the easiest method if you do not have boat drawings or a CAD system. Measurements must be taken to the inside of the mold surface (outside of the boat’s surface). Do not consider rub-rails or any hardware when establishing beam and length dimensions.
Measuring the Boat: There may be cases in which it is impractical to measure a mold, so an alternative method is to measure an existing boat. The figures needed for using Simpson’s Rule are the same as in Figure 3 below, except that the method used is the reverse of measuring the mold. In other words, after establishing a float-plane, establishing the calculation length, and establishing the stations (or sections), the measurements are taken by drawing a line on the floor as the projection of each station, from the centerline to the projected calculation beam at each station location. Then divide the half-beam line into five equal spaces and measure from the floor to the projected points a, b, c, d, e, and f, where these intersect with the bottom of the boat. Subtract these measurements from the calculated distance between the float-plane and the floor. This will result in the values to be entered on the work sheet.
The method to calculate the displacement by measuring the mold is adapted so the same procedure may be used with all three categories of boats. The specific differences will be clearly noted for the technician to include in the calculations. For example, in the case of an outboard boat, the volume of the engine-well below the float-plane must be deducted, while an inboard boat does not have this feature. This method simplifies the calculation by making the displacement calculations equal for all boat categories.


FIGURE 3 - Determination of Boat Displacement
Mold Preparation: Set the hull mold on the floor so that the keel line is level as described under the definition of "Horizontal Boat" in section 2.0.
Determine where the float-plane will intersect the transom. Look for the lowest point of water ingress on the boat (possibly the external engine vents on an inboard or the coaming of the engine well on an outboard). If the boat does not need to be rated for the largest capacity possible, ignore the deck or other superstructure. Remember that drains, scuppers, bilge-pump discharge fittings, deck-to-hull joint, and other sources of minor leaks may be below the float-plane.
Attach a string to the bow of the mold on the centerline, and to the point on the transom or transom plane where all points of major leaks are now above the string. This is the static float-plane.
Look at Figure 3 and notice that the calculation length (L) dimension we will use for Simpson’s Rule is not the same as the LOA, or length-over-all, of the boat. Rather, it is the dimension taken from the most forward point of the interior of the mold below the static float-plane to a point on the transom (or transom plane for those boats with odd-shaped sterns) which is the mid-point between the static float-plane and the keel line or its projection. Mark, with a piece of tape on the string, the vertical projection of this mid-point on the transom. The calculation length (L) will be the horizontal distance from this tape to the most forward point on the interior of the mold.
Divide the length of the string into four equal spaces, and then divide the most forward of these into two equal spaces. Look again at the hull in Figure 3. You now have established Sections: AA, A, B, C, and D.
The next step is to mark, on the topside flange of the mold, the places where the beam of each section will intersect the hull sheer or perimeter of the mold. The easiest method is to attach a piece of masking tape to the top of the mold approximately in the area where this intersection will be, and then, with a straight edge across the top of the mold, mark the outboard point of intersection when both ends of the straight edge are equidistant from the transom (or perpendicular to the centerline string). Now you have marked the place where the calculation beam used in the formula will be measured. The float-plane may very well be below the top flange of the mold where the straight edge has been placed, so if you measure the distance between the straight edge and the string marking the float-plane and call it dimension x (see figure 3A), this number must be subtracted from the measurements in the next step.
Divide the half-beam distance on each station (or section) into five equal spaces. Measure the vertical distance from the straight edge to the bottom of the mold at each of the points marked a, b, c, etc. Then subtract dimension x from these measurements to arrive at the net dimension between the static float-plane and the mold bottom (outside skin of the boat), to be entered on the blank spaces provided in Figure 4, for a, b, c, etc.

Look carefully at Figure 3-A. You have measured the net dimension between the float-plane and the boat on each of the vertical lines at each station; now enter them in the blank form located in section 4.1. Then enter the beam at each station. Remember this is the full calculation beam and not the half-beam. Enter the calculation length (L). Figure 4 shows a detailed look at the manner in which the stations A-A, A, B, C and D are laid out and measured.
FIGURE 3 A - Determination of Boat Displacement - Detailed
We are now ready to calculate the displacement in pounds. In Figure 4 we have a worksheet to compute the Simpson’s Rule formula and arrive at the cubic capacity which, when multiplied by the weight of a cubic foot of water, will give us the boat’s displacement below the float-plane. It’s a good idea to make extra copies of these blank forms. Fill in the values measured and run the equations to get cubic capacity.
When you finish the calculations on these forms, the displacement of the boat measured inside a mold has been determined. This figure, known as the maximum displacement, is used to calculate the maximum weight capacity.


Safe Loading - Subpart C

Calculation of the Maximum Displacement

Blank Form for the Calculation of Maximum Displacement

It may be useful to make copies of the following form to keep for future use. The instructions for the use of this form have been explained above.
FIGURE 4 - Boat Displacement Worksheet For Any Boat Category

Enter on the form below, the dimensions noted in Figure 4 for the vertical dimensions a, b, c, d, e and f, on each of the sections (stations), enter the calculation beam for each section, and enter the calculation length (L).

NOTES:

1. Volume in cubic inches of the integral structure aft of the transom and below the static float-plane may be added to the cubic capacity. To determine this, figure the volume of any bustles, integral swim platforms or other structures below float-plane and add this volume to the formula where it says +/- Note 1. On the other hand, any volume of an engine well below the float-plane must be calculated and subtracted from the cubic capacity.
   
   
2. The factor 174,600 includes a 5% margin for measurement error.
   
   
3. Boat weight includes engine, stern drive, fuel system, fuel and battery weight.
   
   
4. The figures used in these examples are taken from the boat dimension drawings in Figure 4. The letters (a, b, c, d, e, and f) have been placed under the dimensions taken from Figure 3 as a further help for the user of this Guideline. All dimensions should be converted to decimal numbers before insertion in the formula. That number in cubic inches divided by 1,728 gives the volume in cubic feet.

That's a long way from the overly simplistic and potentially very dangerous L X B / 15...

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Jack, I'm sorry for being an @ss last night ...

towards your post. I appreciate your analogy regarding your Peterbilt, and I do have a more thoughtful answer ... (see, I always have answers) .

I suspect that the capacity of a rig like yours is never really an issue. It's a "beast of burden", which is intended to serve a driver or a driving team. Besides that, I'm sure that capacity of your load is a far more defined limitation and you have State Regulations which determine the load that you can legally carry. I also imagine that Peterbilt has an extremely rigid set of safety considerations that they are compelled by law to comply with. There is no doubt in my mind that highway safety regulations are far more rigidly defined and enforced than recreational boating activities.

Recreational boats are more like playboys. There must be an expectation that people are going to bump-up against the capacity or even exceed it because there seems to be no restraints in place to prevent it. UPSGUY, somebody already made the point early on that there are a multitude of law enforcement and Coast Guard authorities within close proximity and patrolling on the night of the fireworks. During the fireworks show on Lake Hopatcong, there were State Police, local fire dept boats and coast guard auxillary patrolling all over the lake during the evening. With all the legal authorities in the near vicinity, it is not likely that this boat went un-noticed. But nobody seems to have jurisdiction to prevent this type of mis-use .... so nobody acts.

MS, I agree with you that the formula is intended for "smallish" boats, but I also think that it is only recently that they are qualifying this position. When I had to take a mandatory Safe Boating course a few years ago, it was never qualified this way ... and it also wasn't when this issue came up before not much more than a year ago. I agree that the formula makes no sense ... not even for small boats, because, why would there be a formula that is taught when small boats with outboards have been required to have a capacity plate for several decades already. In fact, during the course the CG Auxillary basically said, for small boats under 20' there is a capacity plate, for the others there is this formula ... In one course guide I found they said that when determining capacity in boats over 26', count the seats and that should give you an idea ... huh?

Simpson's Rule seems much more encompassing, but unless you are building your boat, how is it useful?

Stu, I looked at your reference to the Federal Safe Boating Act of 1971 ... aside from the issue that it barely applies to recreational boats, it really had nothing that I could find regarding boat capacity. The closest reference that I could find regarding recreational boats was some sort of language about the desire for States to initiate Safe Boating education for recreational boaters. I can see that the topic of boat capacity has barely been explored or enforced.

 

[Stu Jackson]

For crying out laud. They even have capacity sign in restaurant and theaters.
At least in our city they do.

The reason they do that goes all the way back to the Triangle Factory fire in New York in the early 1930s. After scores of workers were killed, legislation was put in place to deal with overcrowding and exiting from public buildings. It is a fire safety issue. In addition to being a building systems engineer, I am a student of this period in American history.

It is analogous but I think different than the issue at hand for boats.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Fsba 1971

Scott, I mentioned that 'cuz I was reading Chapman's and quoted out of it, to mention only the civil and criminal issues I noted. There is,as you note, no capacity requirements for larger boats. I do disagree with your assertion that the information is hidden or buried. If Maine Sail can find it in three minutes...?

 

[Ross]

Re: Fsba 1971

Every few years there is a report of a passenger ferry accident in asia involving a grossly overloaded ferry. They have probably been able to make that same run a hundred times but on this occassion something out of the ordinary happened and rolled the ship. On a still water mill pond you can load a boat to the gunwales and make it from one side to the other but if your big retriever dog swims out and tries to join you there will be trouble.

 

[dawg2]

Those kids might have lived if the boat hadn't taken them down with it.

Actually, those kids would have lived if the boat wasn't overloaded. The core problem is not that it sank, but why it did.

Plenty of people have drowned in boats that never sank.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Stu, I guess I question it's validity ...

JSG pointed out (from experience with FAA) that a "recommendation" has no teeth. Yes, it can be found in the owners manual ... but that serves no purpose to the people who get on board the boat. The reason that I think that anybody should have access to this information (via a capacity plate on the boat), is because nobody should really put all their trust in the owner or driver of a recreational boat. Most of us don't have any special training and we may not even have any special knowledge other than we have more hours driving a boat than they do. I think it is wrong to set-up the owner of the boat as the ultimate authority (as many of us think we are) just because we own the boat and wear the funny little "captains" cap.

Is a there a difference between a recommendation and a hard number that is put on a capacity plate? I think there might be if the recommendation isn't backed-up by anything more than the legal department's opinion. I don't know the answer to that question.

 

[MrBill_FLL]

OT: average weight of passengers:
the old rating was 160#, now its 185#

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5212/aawpp.asp

On December 1, 2011, the Assumed Average Weight Per Person (AAWPP) of 185 pounds became effective. Documents associated with the AAWPP and the basis for its determination can be accessed below. These include:


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/us/coast-guard-raises-assumed-average-weight-per-person.html

-so even if you have a capacity plate, it may be wrong... if you have heavy crew.

 

[anchorclanker]

That formula Length X Beam / 15 is an old formula used as very rough guidance for SMALLER BOATS. This is NOT the formula that boat builders are held to for determining safe capacity for recreational boats and is definitely NOT what is used for USCG inspected passenger vessels.

While they have these guides, its my understanding that for boats over 20 feet and which arent for charter, there are no maximum capacity limitations they have to comply with. And from what ive read, even capacity plates on smaller boats are not enforceable.

While allowing so many people to board that boat appears stupid or clueless to many of us here, I think mine and Scott's point is that there is a great majority of powerboaters we share the waters with who would fall into that category, and many shouldnt even be allowed near the water. I've seen it almost everytime ive been near the water. Drinking, people running boats with kids in the water behind the boat, people coming so close to shore dragging tubes they could throw people onto shore, jet skis flying around haphazardly. Dang, there something stupid with boats on AFV almost every episode. But of all the stupid stuff were seeing, overloading boats to party on has almost become tradition. The city of Chicago has an annual boat party, as do some other major cities, and looking at some of the pics posted online, its amazing they havent had some similar tragedy. While they may not be outright encouraging overloading boats with bikini clad babes and drunken men, they certainly arent doing anything to curb it.

Sailing, by its nature, requires a higher level of competence, which in turn creates a greater desire for knowledge, more emphasis on safety, education, training. None of that really exists around powerboaters. And as the boats have become larger and more powerful, and more and more people owning them, there seems to be a dumbing down of peoples need for basic common sense. If that boat was so overloaded with people to feel dangerous, or look dangerous, how could 20 some adults all look the other way and bring there kids aboard? Were they all equally as stupid as the operator, or is it simple ignorance en mass? Maybe they have all been out to some of those boat parties where that kind of overcrowding is acceptable?

So in that light, im not so judgmental of the guy running that boat, or the adults who rode with him, as I am at a society that promotes such ignorance to begin with. As has been stated, there were many boats out there, as well as police and USCG. Someone could just as easily have said something before it became tragic. But no. And equally, how many other boats were out there which were just as overloaded, but escaped?

So what will come of this? Education would help. Manufacturers downgrading their capacity would help. Having the CG publish realistic figures would help. Having capacity signs in clear sight of passengers in multiple locations would help. Locking the guy up wont accomplish any of that. He would probably been better off going down with it.

 

[jackhartjr]

Scott, I did not at all think you were being an ass, and the truck analogy was probably not the right thing to do in this setting. I am simply trying to say, without screaming that plate or no plate, the guy steering the boat should have figured out sometime wwaayy before 27 folks that that boat had too many folks on it.
Jack

 

[Ross]

We here also get into a conflict between marketing and reality. Quite obviously the boat could carry 27 people. It had been doing so for quite some time. There are members here who also believe that the pickup trucks really can haul three times the weight of the truck. But like this boat owner/operator they can get into trouble with the unexpected. We have a 12 % grade a quarter mile long with a two lane bridge at the bottom. The road is used by commercial trucks and large farm machines. If someone were hauling a 12000 pound boat down that hill and found a 200 HP tractor with an 8 row planter crossing the bridge he would soon wish that he had air brakes on that trailer.

 

[jackhartjr]

Ross, or wake up LeRoy!
Jack

 

[weinie]

Yeah!!! More laws and regulations by the nanny state!

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/safely_capsized_passengers_tragedy_YKliKsWmuSro2iI0L7jPGI

 

[jviss]

Typical NY Post - refers to dead children as 'slain.'

Typical nanny- state, elitist Schumer.

 

[RobertLangdirect]

Air bags, built into the boat, cross wired so a wave on any one side would not deploy them, but if sinking, water pressure sets off the bags.

What a solution. All parts exists. Only adds a few thousand dollars to the yacht but think of the lives it will save.