Pocket cruiser recommendations for family of 3

[Grotto]

I love my Catalina 22 best bang for your buck swing keel. And if your “new” boat is in the 2-5k range you will be able to find parts for your older 22. That said I would say a Rhodes 22 is the best family weekender out there. Full head. Did I mention a full head? Shoal draft keel with a drop centerboard. General Boats is recycling older hulls so you can get a new to you at a great price. (And not have a 6 month project) if I could have found one in my price range I would have snatched it up in a second.

 

[uralite]

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/d/montgomery-15-sailboat/6673220562.html

I know this is maybe not in your area, but Montgomery has not been mentioned. They make a 15 and 17 footer. Shoal draft, good sailing, Lyle Hess designs. Maybe a bit more money, but can find them used and they are great boats with solid reputation and resale.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

My first trailer sailor is a Starwind 19. It's a well made boat with a very well laid out cabin and really comes alive in moderate and heavy winds but is quite forgiving. Mine is for sale in the Chicago area but even if you're not interested in it, I would still recommend taking a look at these boats.

As for trailering it, you'll probably want to upgrade your suspension before upgrading brakes. If there's too much tongue weight the rear tow vehicle axle will act like the center of a teater totter. The front of the vehicle will have less weight on it and if substantial enough, can cause instability while driving and the front tires can go skidding under normal braking conditions. About 70% of vehicle braking is done on the front axle. You'll see the vehicle squatting in the rear. There are many options under $400 to choose from. I can vouch for the Firestone airbags. They are fantastic. Try towing your boat once you buy it to determine if its needed. Many vehicles will drive just fine without modifications and others take lots of extra attention while driving. You can also do some adjustments to the trailer to find a good tongue weight (axle, bow support, etc) as well

 

[Joe the Sailor]

My first trailer sailor is a Starwind 19... still recommend taking a look at these boats

Well, since this thread's been resurrected, I'll give an update.

Yep, we took a look at a Starwind 19 last winter. It had a few issues.... the whole interior was dripping wet from the ceiling (condensation?). It had rained the prior few days, and the boat's cover (a tarp) was in sad shape, so everything was wet inside. The owner wasn't present either; it just gave use the feeling the boat had been neglected, so we passed on it.

This one caught my eye around here recently, but I never went to look at it:
https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/boa/d/1983starwind-19/6729146063.html

She looks well taken care of.

The more I read about them, the more I liked the Com-Pac 16. Stability (bal/disp ratio, SA/disp ratio), construction quality (non-cored decks, shoal keel), and trailerability (towing weight and rigging time) were the main points we had to satisfy. We're frequent tent campers, so a small cabin would be OK. A cockpit tent would allow more sleeping room.

The week before last, I found a '79 Com-Pac 16 for sale about an hour away. After missing out on a few other deals, I made sure I was the first person to look at this one. The owner had her for the past 20 years, but left her sitting for the last 10. She came with newer sails (Sailrite kit), a genoa, and a 3.3hp Johnson. I paid $1300, and then $200 more on new tires to get her home.

She certainly needs some work, but she's got "good bones". I have plenty of projects lined up to keep me busy this winter.
I found the Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association forum and Burgess' "Handbook of Trailer Sailing"; lots of good stuff there specific to the 16. I have an industrial sewing machine (Pfaff 1245) which I'm eager to use to make a dodger, bimini, cushions, and cockpit tent for her. She needs interior work (bunks replaced, and paint), and all new running rigging. I'm focusing on the trailer first though.

Here's a gallery with more pictures, and will be updated as I work on her.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MhcNkENJEG2kvQBx5

 

[jssailem]

Montgomery has not been mentioned. They make a 15

Big
for the Montgomery 15. It is a true Pocket Cruiser. Took me all over the Pacific NW for 19 years.

Then I fell in love with a new mistress and she found a new home.
A great boat design.

 

[Joe the Sailor]

Speaking of the Monty 17, Brian Gilbert (author of "Fix it and Sail") has listed his Montgomery 17, "Tiny Dancer" for sale here in GA. https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/73872

 

[Will Gilmore]

That sail insignia looks like an up side down Mariner insignia.

Nice purchase. You will be happy.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Project_Mayhem]

This one caught my eye around here recently, but I never went to look at it:
https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/boa/d/1983starwind-19/6729146063.html

She looks well taken care of.

The paint on the hull looks really nice. This one has had a lot of modifications it looks like. The stern rail is very different and may not be up to the task of supporting the mast over time. Otherwise it looks nice

 

[Joe the Sailor]

That sail insignia looks like an up side down Mariner insignia.

Nice purchase. You will be happy.

-Will (Dragonfly)

Yep, "W" for "Widgeon", I guess.

 

[rgranger]

She is a cutie ....

So most of us don't do a lot of night sailing on our boats but we still set up the boat as if it will be sailed 24/7. So all of that work and material needed to set up nav. lights, steaming lights and anchor lights sits unused for 99.9% of the lifetime of the infrastructure. When you start thinking about redoing the electric, you might want to buck conventional wisdom and NOT rewire the boat but instead go with something like this for the navigation lights...

hang something like this from your boom for an anchor light...

and use a few well placed puck lights for the cabin lights...

You can do the entire job for under $40 and it will take you 5 min. to hang the puck lights.

Put the nav. and anchor lights in waterproof box with spare batteries and tick that off of your to-do list.

 

[Joe the Sailor]

...When you start thinking about redoing the electric, you might want to buck conventional wisdom and NOT rewire the boat but instead go with something like this for the navigation lights...

I appreciate the ideas. I've read about lots of others with their complaints about rewiring a boat. Electrical work would be one of the last projects to undertake also, since it's not absolutely necessary just to get out on the water.

However, I'm a building and industrial automation engineer, and have been saving wire scraps and other hardware for the past few years just for this occasion, so she'll most likely get the wiring treatment. But not until later though.

Lighting in the cabin will definitely get some attention. It's gotta be "cozy" in there (and the right lighting can really help out), or the first mate isn't going to want to camp out there with me. Think warm built in lighting, as opposed to bluish white headlamps.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Dont forget about your red lights so your eyes dont have to adjust after going in the cabin

 

[Serenity on Hudson]

I have a water ballast Hunter 23.5. Sailed her on the Hudson river for the last 12 years. A good light air boat but heads up at the slightest puff. It's a hand full in heavy air, keeps you on your toes. The boat is very roomy. The cockpit holds 6. With 4 people, no one gets in the way. Below, hunter made a very big box that can accommodate 4 easily. Has a table usable below and in the cockpit.

Getting rid of her for a Capri 22. All I do is day sail so looking for a ballast keel and complete sail control. The Hunter has very little sail controls. An outhaul, Halyard tension and vang on the main. Nothing on the Genoa, the boat has no backstay.

A good starter boat, but not a great sailor.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

I've always been told that water ballast boats weren't great sailors. Thank you for filling in the "why"

 

[rgranger]

I've always been told that water ballast boats weren't great sailors. Thank you for filling in the "why"

I don't think that is an accurate generalization. I recently moved from a heavy keel boat (Balboa 26) to a water ballast (Hunter 26). The sail characteristics are very different. When I first got my H26, it also had a tendency to round up hard but I got a new main sail and that is no longer an issue. On the H26, the main is much larger (proportionally) than typically seen on a 26' sailboat. So if the main is blown, the effect is amplified. A water ballasted boat needs to sail flatter than a keel ballast boat so you need to reef earlier. My first reef goes in about 12 mph. Get a main with two sets of reef points and you can keep going up into the low 20's. But much above 20 mph and you need to go main alone and then once you hit 25 mph, I'm firing up the iron genny. The H26 would loose to the Balboa in a 20 mph breeze but below 12 mph the Hunter would be the lead boat. How often do you sail in wind above 20 mph? Every boat is a trade-off. Know what your buying and why.

 

[JRT]

I can't really give good or bad feedback on water ballast but I had a lot of sail control issues with my original old sails last year. This year I went new Precision jib (115) and new old stock North Sail Main with loose foot and top 2 battens are full length. This combination has made this year just night and day in improvement. A lot of people say junk old sails and I think a lot just don't understand the shocking difference this can make with these old boats.

 

[Joe the Sailor]

I've always been told that water ballast boats weren't great sailors. Thank you for filling in the "why"

I still can't get my head around water ballast, and I quit considering water ballasted boats for purchase.

I know it lowers the CG of the boat, (and therefore raises the center of buoyancy) but as long as the water ballast is below the water line, the additional righting moment is only due to the weight of the fiberglass hull surrounding the water ballast and the air in hull that's moved lower below the water line. (And yes, I'm also aware that many freighters use water ballast to stabilize the hull. I'd argue it's to add a greater angular momentum though, meant to inhibit the hull's tendency to roll.)

As an example, water, added outside the hull below the water line, adds no righting moment to the boat since it's the same density as the medium it's surrounded by. Imagine filling garbage bags with water, and fastening them to the hull of a sailboat, below the hull's water line. Until this ballast is brought above the surface, they add nothing (except the negligible weight of the garbage bags) to the righting moment of the boat. The only time they'd come into play is when they're lifted above the water line (where the surrounding medium would be air). This would explain all the reviews of these water ballasted boats saying they heel easily. They'll heel fairly quickly until the water ballast is brought above the surface of the surrounding water. Then the hull "bites in", as the owners like to say (which is when the ballast is brought above the level of the lake/ocean).

They also add some resistance to heeling, due to the weight of the water ballast. So a puff wouldn't heel the boat as quickly as it would an unballasted one. It'd absorb the impact, if you will. I suppose that's worth something, as it makes them "feel bigger" on the water.

Drop a water balloon and an air-filled balloon from a given height next to each other. Which one hits the ground first?

I realize every boat is a trade off, and water ballasted boats certainly have their place. They function exactly as described above, and if you're into that, cool! Water ballast offers the trailer sailor the ability to haul a larger (longer) boat than they otherwise would've been able to. For those with water ballasted boats, keep sailing them! You're out on the water while I'm here typing on a keyboard.

But for me, with their complexity (valves, tank cleaning and sealing), the concerns regarding spreading invasive marine organisms, and the (arguably, negligible) mechanical advantage they add to the righting moment of the hull, we decided to pass on the water ballasted boats.

 

[Jackdaw]

I still can't get my head around water ballast, and I quit considering water ballasted boats for purchase.

I know it lowers the CG of the boat, (and therefore raises the center of buoyancy) but as long as the water ballast is below the water line, the additional righting moment is only due to the weight of the fiberglass hull surrounding the water ballast and the air in hull that's moved lower below the water line. (And yes, I'm also aware that many freighters use water ballast to stabilize the hull. I'd argue it's to add a greater angular momentum though, meant to inhibit the hull's tendency to roll.)

As an example, water, added outside the hull below the water line, adds no righting moment to the boat since it's the same density as the medium it's surrounded by. Imagine filling garbage bags with water, and fastening them to the hull of a sailboat, below the hull's water line. Until this ballast is brought above the surface, they add nothing (except the negligible weight of the garbage bags) to the righting moment of the boat. The only time they'd come into play is when they're lifted above the water line (where the surrounding medium would be air). This would explain all the reviews of these water ballasted boats saying they heel easily. They'll heel fairly quickly until the water ballast is brought above the surface of the surrounding water. Then the hull "bites in", as the owners like to say (which is when the ballast is brought above the level of the lake/ocean).

They also add some resistance to heeling, due to the weight of the water ballast. So a puff wouldn't heel the boat as quickly as it would an unballasted one. It'd absorb the impact, if you will. I suppose that's worth something, as it makes them "feel bigger" on the water.

Drop a water balloon and an air-filled balloon from a given height next to each other. Which one hits the ground first?

I realize every boat is a trade off, and water ballasted boats certainly have their place. They function exactly as described above, and if you're into that, cool! Water ballast offers the trailer sailor the ability to haul a larger (longer) boat than they otherwise would've been able to. For those with water ballasted boats, keep sailing them! You're out on the water while I'm here typing on a keyboard.

But for me, with their complexity (valves, tank cleaning and sealing), the concerns regarding spreading invasive marine organisms, and the (arguably, negligible) mechanical advantage they add to the righting moment of the hull, we decided to pass on the water ballasted boats.

LOL - I actually wrote a rebuttal to this, and then re-read what you wrote. Took me a second to see what you were getting at, but you are correct in saying that the water ballast only serves to 'sink' the boat deeper into the water, creating a wider vertical gap between the CB and the VG. I've never hear it expressed like that, clever.

 

[Joe the Sailor]

That's not true at all. While not nearly as effective as lead or iron, water ballast will absolutely create vertical separation between the CG (Center of Buoyancy) and CB (Center of Gravity) on a boat. That's the key. As the boat heels, the growing horizontal separation between the two (the righting arm) resists heel. None of the water has to rise above the level of outside water for this to happen (but it often does).

That's what I was trying to explain when I said

the additional righting moment is only due to the weight of the fiberglass hull surrounding the water ballast and the air in hull that's moved lower below the water line.

I know we've all seen https://www.bedardyachtdesign.com/articles/the-effects-of-water-ballast-on-sailboat-stability/, which is the best source I've seen regarding the calc's for this ballast type.

Note that Boat A and Boat D don't apply to the Hunters, Catalinas, and McGregor's we talking about here. Boat A has a water filled keel (while the trailor sailors all have swing keels or dagger boards). Boat D has water ballast tanks just like the trailer sailors, but here is only filled on the windward side. The offshore racing boats that fill the windward ballast tank on each tack are a totally different breed from a trailer sailor.

I'd like to see some calc's showing the righting moments of the aforementioned trailer sailors (with their bilge water tanks filled), but to my knowledge, none exist. I suppose I could model them myself if I owned one of these and had accurate measurements of their hull and tanks (but, that's a lot of work!).

I agree that the righting moment is enhanced by the water ballast in these boats, it's just that it's not nearly as much as with a solid keel (...as you stated).

While not nearly as effective as lead or iron...

While there are some advantages here that appeal to the trailer sailor, I feel they're outweighed by the disadvantages of a water ballast system.

Again, if you're currently sailing your water-ballasted boat with no qualms, you're miles ahead of me who's still working on being out there.

 

[Jackdaw]

LOL - You replied to my rebuttal before I re-read your post, and then changed it agreeing with you! ;^)