Oday 28 Hand Rails

jssailem

jssailem

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Oct 22, 2014
21,104
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
agprice22 said:
it takes no torque
Click to expand
Randall,
What AG is saying - 5200 does not play well when it is under constant motion, as in the way the deck hardware is used. If you have a stanchion in a fixed position and no one is going to be grabbing it or pulling on it to get aboard then the adhesive and sealing properties of 5200 will not be challenged and will last a long time. When you have a stanchion used to pull crew aboard, or a winch that will be pulled (torqued) by sails and crew, then the movement will breakdown the adhesion of the 5200 and an opportunity for a leak is possible/probable. Butyl has a lot of stick even when pulled or torqued and is less prone to leaking in such situations. Additionally if you need to remove your winch at some future date, there is less chance you'll break the gelcoat or fiberglass under the winch with butyl than 5200.
 
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Randall Schmidt

Randall Schmidt

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Mar 1, 2016
267
Oday 28 Tracy's Landing
Thanks
what about the holes exposed when I removed the teak rub rail? Shall I pot them too and epoxy them next or just inject epoxy and drill new holes else where to mount the frame that will hold the rubber rub rail I'm getting from DRMarine?
 
jssailem

jssailem

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Oct 22, 2014
21,104
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Potting is to stop water intrusion into the deck core. It you are in solid fiberglass then no need. Are they screws or bolts and nuts? Screws need to go into something solid. I have seen holes filled with epoxy that were then screwed into, screw was coated with mold release. One hardened the screw could be unscrewed and there was a ready made pre drilled and threaded screw site to attach something. This might work for your rail. Would need a picture.
If you have to go into some sort of fiberglass/wood/fiberglass deck, then the epoxy pot is how you stop water intrusion into the wood.
Hope that helps.
 
agprice22

agprice22

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Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
My 272 has plywood in the core under the side decks. I do not know if it extends to the toerail molding. You will find out when you remove the old toerail. I would pot any through-deck hole that goes through a wood core. This way, the hole is encapsulated by epoxy, and water would only get inside the boat, not the deck core.
The slight disadvantage is that self-tapping screws usually used for wood can strip epoxy if you over-tighten them, and you have no fiberglass cloth in the holes to add structure. Do not over tighten the screws. Remember that the 5200 will do the job. The screws hold the wood in place while the adhesive cures.

As JSsailem said, you can pre-set your screws when you epoxy the holes. A wax coating on the screws will keep them from sticking to the epoxy.

I am refurbishing a Telstar 28 trimaran. There is no wood core in the hull or deck. I thought I would have to pot every fitting, but I will not.
 
Jackdaw

Jackdaw

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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
agprice22 said:
I like the idea of the plasteak toe rails. I would put them down with 5200 adhesive instead of butyl. You are never going to take them up again.
You should definitely pot those holes.

I put my plasteak slider rails down with 5200, and it worked fine. I never intend to remove them again, and even if I did, I could slide a knife under them to cut the adhesive.
Butyl will probably work fine. I like to use adhesive when I know I won't move them, and they receive no torque. Butyl is great when there is movement or you have to remove the item someday.
Click to expand
Isn't Plasteak just HDPE?? 5200 will not adhere to that; very few things will.

I personally would make the mechanical bond with fasteners, and use a something like butyl as a sealant.
 
agprice22

agprice22

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Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
Jackdaw, oddly, I thought so too. 5200 sticks to it! My sliders are down tight. I had to pull some starboard off my new Telstar, and it was all glued down with 5200, damned if it didn't pull up a little gelcoat with it where I didn't get a knife under it fully!
I thought like you, but it works.
also, Plasteak has grain in it. It acts very much like wood and can be sanded and roughed up. Actually, starboard can be too.
 
Randall Schmidt

Randall Schmidt

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Mar 1, 2016
267
Oday 28 Tracy's Landing
Here is a photo. I do not think the screws hit core. No evidence of wood fibers when I removed the old ones.
I'm not following a couple of your comments - "I have seen holes filled with epoxy that were then screwed into, screw was coated with mold release. One hardened the screw could be unscrewed and there was a ready made pre drilled and threaded screw site to attach something." Please explain further. "mold release?" These are screws only with no nuts on the back side. They are fairly short, maybe 1.5 to 1.75" long including the 1/2 inch or so thickness of the old teak rail I removed.

IMG_6361.JPG
 
agprice22

agprice22

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Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
The screws can be inserted into the epoxy while it is still curing, but you have to wax them, so they do not get stuck. I have not done it.

As far as the plasteak, I think it bonds because I have cut it, and it has a rough face just like wood. If you saw Starboard, the edge is often glossy. I have never tried to bond shiny, uncut starboard with 5200. You can see in this photo how the side is matte. The bevel is shiny because it is routed. Those sliders are glued down and screwed. You will have no problem with a toerail.
IMG_0892.JPG
 
jssailem

jssailem

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Oct 22, 2014
21,104
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
AG has it right. Question. Are these screws with machine thread, wood thread, or metal threads? If Machine thread then the O'day may have a threaded metal plate (like some Hunters) imbedded in the fiberglass to receive the screw. Then you only need to worry if it is stripped and requires rethreading. The epoxy screw idea is best accomplished with a screw that has a large thread(i.e. wood thread screws). Essentially you are creating an epoxy hole with screw threads. The inserted screw when removed leaves the threads to be used to attach your hardware. Ok for hardware that will not have heavy use (IMO. I would not trust it for a handhold I want to use to stop myself from being thrown into the water. For that I want a fixture to be through bolted and a strong backing plate. I want to loose grip before the handhold looses grip.)
 
agprice22

agprice22

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Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
I would guess they are 1 - 1/4" wood screws. That is what is used on my 272.

And +1 on all that advice!
 
Randall Schmidt

Randall Schmidt

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Mar 1, 2016
267
Oday 28 Tracy's Landing
I'm no expert on screws but given the description above, I think they are wood screws. My shop is doing the hand rail install. I'm trying to do as much prep as I can. If I need to leave the epoxy uncured then I guess I defer that task to them.
What I'm hearing is that I do not need to pot out these holes before apply epoxy
 
njlarry

njlarry

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Sep 23, 2009
1,475
O'Day 34-At Last Rock Hall, Md
I would only use 5200 hull to deck joints and maybe keels. Most everything else use buytl or boat life. You never know when you will need to remove a piece of deck hardware.
 
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Randall Schmidt

Randall Schmidt

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Mar 1, 2016
267
Oday 28 Tracy's Landing
My shop says to use GE brand silicone caulk named Silpruf weather seal SCS2000. Others advised I use butyl tape or Boat life caulk. I'm sealing toe rails and eyebrows and hand rails. some say 5200 for the eyebrows as I'll never want to remove those again. The material I'm getting is pasteak which is not supposed to adhere to caulks but others on this forum have said they have been successful with it. the manufacturer at plasteak tells me 5200 works so long as I flame the underside before adhering it. I'm going to talk to him to learn more.
 
W

wing15601

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Aug 28, 2015
190
Oday 28 St Joseph, MI
You can use a lot of materials which won't adhere to certain kinds of plastic but will still create a watertight gasket.... as long as the screws remain tight. With the stresses put on a hand rail I would want adhesion also rather just a gasket. That describes butyl tape perfectly. There are a lot of videos on the internet on how to use butyl tape as a sealant. Basically, you only need to seal the screw hole. Here's a good video on using butyl tape:
 
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Randall Schmidt

Randall Schmidt

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Mar 1, 2016
267
Oday 28 Tracy's Landing
I found the old bolts are about 8 inches long. They go thru the hand rails above the cabin, thru the cabin and into the handrails in the boat. If I epoxy the holes and drill new ones, how do I ensure I get the proper angle for this long bolt to go thru all pieces again?
 
Randall Schmidt

Randall Schmidt

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Mar 1, 2016
267
Oday 28 Tracy's Landing
Where do you suggest I go to get replacement bolts as the old ones are a bit beat. 8" long skinny bolts are not common place. I googled and see a site called custom bolts. I just want to avoid delays in shipping but that is probably not likely.
 
Ron20324

Ron20324

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Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
The last time I looked at Fastenal , they had long ones on clearance.
 
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