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Hurth HBW50 replacement

Discussion in 'Catalina 30' started by uralite, May 18, 2018. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    I have recently began to cost share a 1982 Catalina 30 tall rig with original owner. It has been a good deal so far, but as I began to bring engine out of winter hibernation a few issues began to arise. After changing fluids, I became concerned about the lack of engagement of forward thrust with transmission. In searching web, I though I would briefly photo the process as their were not too many info sites, except for the people here.

    I also lost my Dad last year, and he was the only person that had any boat interest or knowledge in my life. This is an invite for supportive and constructive comments.
    The story begins when I took the boat out with current owner a few weeks ago and was immediately suspect. Reverse was fine, initial shift to forward engaged prop, but any gas caused slippage of transmission. I immediately hoped it was fluid, then cable linkage. But alas, when I removed cables and engaged transmission from below without cable, it was the same.

    The marina mechanics told me it would be awhile before they got to it, it would cost +/- $2k and they recommended rebuild of Hurth. I was already reading here and after speaking with Mike at Harbor Marine this afternoon in Everett, WA (who was awesome and helpful) it appears that a new PRM 60 is best bolt in replacement with only changes needing 1/4" increase in engine height and length. The other issues is that the engine shift throw is on port side rather then starboard side. This will require new shift bracket made from local machine shop. The cost is $920 for PRM 60, plus there will be some extras. He said that it is a poor idea to rebuild Hurth 50 as they are not a good design and if I got 250 hours out of it that would be a stretch. It also would cost more to rebuild. Sweet.

    The big frustration is time, if I do it myself I need to pull it this next week and order the new transmission after it is out to see what type of Damper plate is needed. I still have no idea what type of engine it is as the PO (or someone) painted over the serial number and engine info, I believe it is a Phasor Marine 2002 P3-20-SM 3 cylinder marinized Kubota. It has Beta raw water cooling parts on it. I have pics sent to Phasor to see if they can identify it.

    My big question...... can I do this, or wait and lose a month of sailing to have local guys (who recommended something unrecommended) do it? I feel compelled to take it on after watching some vids and reading of others here. I am just gun-shy due to screwing it up could be costly.
     


  2. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    A74756E7-30D8-4C04-94F5-3EC5DB92E053.jpeg This is where it begins
     


    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  3. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    1D19AC41-0675-4B2A-AB21-F31594BC4C6A.jpeg Here is the gnarly looking fluid that came out
     


    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  4. LeslieTroyer

    LeslieTroyer

    Joined May 20, 2016
    1,673 posts, 565 likes
    Catalina 36 MK1
    US Everett, WA
    I agree with using a PMR 60. Yes it is something you can do with patience. I also recommend changing engine mounts and damper plate at the same time. There are lots of articles on dismantling the cabinet for access.

    If you have a Catalina I suspect you have a universal of some sort. In 1982 that would have been the M25. Assuming you haven’t repowered.

    These are great engines and if given a bit of love will last forever. There are some upgrades that are essential. Go to @Maine Sail ’s website (MarineHowTo.com) and look at the alternator bracket upgrade and wiring harness connector upgrade. If you’ve been having overheating at full throttle you may need to upgrade to a 3” heat exchanger over the stock (at that time) 2”. To make fuel filter changes easier there is a article on installing a bleed valve instead of the bleed nut now on the engine.

    If you want to see what the upgrades look like let me know and I meet you at my boat (on south Q) which is just in front of Lombardi’s

    Another great source of info - besides MarineHowTo.com is @Stu Jackson ’s C34.org. The 101 threads are great, and much will apply to your C30.

    Good Luck
    Les
     


    FastOlson likes this.
  5. Stu Jackson

    Stu Jackson

    Joined Feb 26, 2004
    19,907 posts, 575 likes
    Catalina 34
    224 CA Maple Bay, BC, Canada
    Here's a link to our C34 forum. Read the 101 topics and Critical Upgrades.

    http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/board,11.0.html
     


  6. Whatfiero1

    Whatfiero1

    Joined Mar 29, 2017
    188 posts, 31 likes
    Hunter 30t
    US littlecreek
    Back up your transmission does fine in reverse you try disconnecting shift cable at tranny and test shift from there in slip you can tie boat up tight and run almost full speed in slip or even on land if ya spray water on cutless bearing
     


  7. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    This next Sat I have an appt with a mobile marine mechanic, this does seem to be a great option and he is saying he is flexible to let me do some of the work for the owner to save some labor money, will let you all know how it goes.
     


  8. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    Update. I have 2 mechanics telling me to rebuild at higher cost, less longevity, but less time as nothing needs to be altered. With a new prm 60 I need to elevate engine on mounts 1/4” and back 1/4”. Will this affect the shaft alignment, cutlass bearing, or shaft/drip less bearing? I don’t know what to do really. Can I do it in water and not sink the boat? Mounts look ok. Do I have to detach all the lines and hook ups to the engine to move it forward to get the gearbox off? Opinions?
     


  9. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    2,844 posts, 326 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westport, MA
    I have a C36 with an M25 and Hirth gear. There is plenty of travel left in my motor mounts to raise the engine 1/4". Back would be another story, but not hard, the mounts are lag-screwed into the fiberglass-clad wooden bunks. Not a big deal. You would have to re-align anyway. You shouldn't have to disconnect anything, or much, to move it just 1/4". However, to get the gear off you need to remove the bell housing, which holds the rear engine mounts. So you need to support or suspend the engine somehow. You might have to shift the engine some to get the bell housing off and out, with the gear attached.
     


  10. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    Thanks for you reply. I may have not written clearly. The engine would be elevated 1/4" on mounts, but the new gearbox is 1/4" longer and deeper. I should not have to move the engine back on mounts, but I didn't know if by lengthening gearbox by 1/4" whether that would require me to realign shaft and bearings?
     


  11. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    2,844 posts, 326 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westport, MA
    No matter what you do you will have to re-align the output of the gearbox to the propeller shaft. You even have to do this periodically if you change nothing! Some do it every season after launching.
     


    dziedzicmj and Whatfiero1 like this.
  12. dziedzicmj

    dziedzicmj

    Joined Aug 13, 2012
    447 posts, 73 likes
    Catalina 270
    CA Ottawa
    You have to re-align after the replacement or it will affect the cutlass bearing and the PSS.
     


  13. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    So Ive found someone to help me tomorrow with gearbox removal. Im not sure my mounts have enough travel to elevate, so we will fabricate some aluminum shims. Big question for tomorrow, when I detach the coupler for prop shaft, is there any specific precautions to prevent flooding from dripless stuffing box? I detach the coupler bolts, and slid shaft to rear for enough clearance to remove gearbox? I have a plan and gear to lidt engine up if needed, but im hoping I don't need to. Do I need to loosen stuffing box prior to slide to rear? Here photos of dripless and shaft coupler. I can't get past having the boat sink at the dock, Lake Pend Orielle ID is really deep, 70 feet at the dock. I think Im overthinking it, but just want to make sure. Not that shallow would be ok either.
     

    Attached Files:



  14. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    IMG_3690.jpg IMG_3691.jpg Today we successfully got the transmission out of the boat. I found a friend to help out with mechanical knowledge and between the 2 of us it took 3 hours to get it out. The hardest part was getting the flex coupler undone and apart. Still not sure if there is an easier way to get the prop shaft slid back for clearance, we did not loosen any part of it, we lifted the engine and slid engine forward. Also to get the 1 bolt off the starter and detach the bell housing required swivel socket adapter and long extension. Not hard, just a few curse words. We used a come along to lift engine up and move slightly forward. To raise engine 1/4" for new transmission I will have to use shims as there is limited amount of mount travel left. Found a lot of loose fasteners, which was nice for removal, but disconcerting for overall engine function. All mounts look reusable. Will add shims to raise engines, aluminum or stainless?
     


    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  15. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    55086535626__8A58409A-3DF6-42B7-B1EC-78B373EBF975.jpg Here it is out of the engine compartment. I knew I could do it, but I was grateful for my friend, he helped me drive through the few obstacles we encountered.

    Questions moving forward:
    1. 1/4" shims out of stainless or aluminum, Ive read both.
    2. How do I loosen the dripless stuffing box to move shaft to the stern for shaft clearance?
    3. How do you align the shaft and dripless stuffing box?

    Ill be researching these topics over the next few weeks.
     


    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  16. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    This is pic from someone else who did the conversion.

    Transmission bracket MKIII.jpg Updates: I finally pulled the trigger on ordering the PRM60 from Harbor Marine yesterday. Holy crap, the thing arrived from Everett in 24 hours!! It is beautiful. I cannot say enough good things about Mike, super knowledgeable guy, right on. Total cost with damper plate $1100. Now I have to figure out my shims, and reproduce the shift level bracket from the drawing given to me from Mike. This is evidently created by someone in California, I would be happy to give all credit, I don't know where it came from. When printed on 8x10 letter paper it is reported to be exact dimensions as a template. Not sure if I'll do aluminum or stainless for shift mount and for shims. I have an appointment with friend to start installation next Sat. Will add some pics tomorrow when I get it mounted to bell housing. And I ordered new lock nuts for dripless shaft seal.
     

    Attached Files:



    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  17. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    Got the old Hurth off the bell housing and mounted new PRM 60 today. Here is side by side comparison shots. I will admit I had to stop myself from spending too much time wire brushing, cleaning, painting bell housing. You can't polish a turd and goal is to go sailing. Filled with ATF, now waiting for install this weekend. Look BOSS!! A drain plug you can get to from the side when its in the bilge!! Went together like butter. Bell housing was attached by 6 and 8mm Allen head bolts. IMG_6224.JPG IMG_2795.JPG IMG_0112.JPG
     


    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
    BrianRobin likes this.
  18. LeslieTroyer

    LeslieTroyer

    Joined May 20, 2016
    1,673 posts, 565 likes
    Catalina 36 MK1
    US Everett, WA
    Looking good!!
     


  19. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    Oh man does this keep getting more and more frustrating. I have the guy who is helping me scheduled for next Sat to get transmission into boat. The current hold up......Damper plates. The top is the universal one Mike sent.bottom is IMG_7487.JPG

    what came off the Phasor engine. After research I believe it is a Hayes damper plate. It must weight 5 pounds more then the other and bolts are 6 mm versus a lot smaller on Universal model. I have some calls to make, hopefully he will know what it is and where to get a replacement. I am told R&D makes a similar, they also own PSS dripless seals.....hmm. Small world.
    My next problem: rusted motor mounts. These look like Vetus HY mounts, but measures don't correlate. No idea what to do with these. Save them, dump them and buy something else? What should I get? My quick solution has now turned into a slow grind researching parts. AAGGGHHHHHH!!!!
    IMG_7022.JPG
     


  20. uralite

    uralite

    Joined Apr 26, 2018
    83 posts, 20 likes
    Catalina Catalina 30
    US Bayview
    Spoke with R&D today, the same group that owns the PSS dripless seal company. They did awesome for me and after sending pics were able to get me a damper plate based on above dimensions. Last one in stock and should be here prior to my weekend install. My friend will not be able to help, so I think I am going to give a shot at it myself, I know I can get mounts in with shims, and hopefully damper plate and bell housing started. That one bolt behind starter might be a bi#*h, but Ill try and get that done if I can to.

    They also have motor mounts. I ordered motor mounts as above after giving them engine info.


    IMG_3527.JPG

    Corrosion actually makes stud smaller, don't know what I was thinking. The mounts have either 5/8" stud or 12 mm. I ordered 12 mm as it was closest to my measures.

    IMG_6351.JPG

    This thing is quite a bit beefier then Universal damper plate, I don't know. He said they do make one specifically for Phasor engine. Lets hope it all works. Once I was able to give them data they needed, like whats on sheet, they called back within an hour to provide options. Total cost so far, $1100 for PRM 60 and Universal Damper plate (which I will send back) and around $550 for mounts and Damper plate from PYI. Time, too much to count since it took me extra time to figure this all out.
     


    kbgunn likes this.

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