Choosing a hybrid wind/solar charge controller

[patrickkidd]

Hi there!

I am looking at wind and solar power, to power a NorCold 2.5A icebox conversion kit (fridge), a Dickinson NewPort (diesel heater) high pressure fuel pump, and the usual cabin lights and phone/laptop chargers.

It looks like a 300W or so wind generator and 2x100W solar panels (batwing-style: one on each side of cockpit railing?) and 100ah battery will probably do it for San Francisco Bay. There is never a cloudy day with no wind here.

There is a ton of gear out there and it's hard to tell what is quality and what is not, especially for hybrid wind/solar charge controllers. What have you used? Any brand names you would recommend?

I'd like to keep the budget reasonably mid-range. Thanks!

 

[Chief RA]

Need to know total per hr amp draw! (24 hr AVG amp draw per hr also needed) Why a special controller? Why wind? Early indicator is; you will be wasting lots of money! ONLY a 100 ah battery? I hope you havn't bought anything yet, as you need lots of help. Chief

 

[patrickkidd]

Need to know total per hr amp draw! (24 hr AVG amp draw per hr also needed) Why a special controller? Why wind? Early indicator is; you will be wasting lots of money! ONLY a 100 ah battery? I hope you havn't bought anything yet, as you need lots of help. Chief

The wattage is described using the figures given (and again below), I don't think I'm looking for a comprehensive breakdown of energy draw, just interested in a qualitative survey of brands and models others have used and for what loads.

Let me shift gears then by writing what I do know as of today. But for the record, my daily minimum is fridge: 1.25ah, electronics: 6ah, fuel pump: 1ah = 8.25ah. I could easily bump to 200ah batteries if necessary. The fridge running out of juice is not acceptable and a combination wind+solar setup seems like the way to go, especially since there is never a cloudy day without wind here.

Non-flexible solar panels appear to be a less complicated decision than wind, as their seems to be less variance in there durability and efficiency than wind turbines. Monocrystalline cells look like the ideal choice over polycrystalline for efficiency, and a charge controller with MPPT instead of PWM is a must for overall efficiency of the circuit. The only challenge is finding the right aspect to mount them for maximum sun exposure considering booms create shadows and boats rotate on the hook. Bimini or dodger mounting appears the best, but I don't have a bimini and my soon-coming Iversons dodger is going to be far too pretty to ruin (i'm open for others to change my mind there). My current strategy is to mount one horizontally on each side of the cockpit, straight to the stern rail.

A hybrid wind/solar controller looks like it offers the benefit of synchronized charging load for the solar and wind circuit. You can run a solar and a wind controller side by side on the same battery bank, but you have to make sure you can set one or the other float voltage to match the other. Must-have features are an ammeter to monitor power output and a wind brake switch. A "good" controller like the BlueSky e20 @ emarine.com appears to cost at least $600. Another well-reviews but expensive series is the Tristar 30. There are many, many, many miscellaneous brands out there but it is difficult to get info on which are worth their cost.

The wind turbines themselves are expensive and offer a range of variables to choose from. Noise V.S. output appears to be the most important variables. Both automatic and manual brakes are a must have. West Marine sells a NaturePower "400W" turbine for $450 but it has so-so reviews and no indication of how noisy it is. The Air X + blue 'quiet' carbon blades ($1,135.00 + $350 @ emarine) looks like a good solution for (12+kts, probably applicable to SF bay) and the Air Breeze + blue 'quiet' blades ($1,139.00 + $360 @ emarine) offering higher output at lower average wind speeds (8+its) and also regulates itself which apparently means it won't run if it doesn't need to. The Rutland 914i ($1075 @ emarine) seems to be a tried-and-tested relatively quiet turbine for lower wind speeds but is only sold with a PWM controller and doesn't output much more than 100W.

Here is a wonderful quantitative breakdown of various turbines and their power VS noise output.

And then you have to get a tower pole and hardware kit for $550. And wiring, fuses, etc. There are some very nice looking solar+wind kits organized around the e20 controller and polycrystalline with all mounting hardware for $2500-$3000 emarine. That's a lot of dough.

So there is a ton of variables in the hardware alone, and multiplied by your individual power needs it is a bit of a rats nest. I would love to hear about others' setups and experiences regardless of their power needs, and especially noise, maintenance, what you think about the quality of the brands that you chose.

Cheers.

 

[Chief RA]

Start out with doubling on batteries and expand if necessary. The reason I questioned both pwr sources is using one might save you money. Using both does provide versatility though for SF. My observation concerning wind is the vibration problem as well as the noise. I hate the boat buzz.
Solar power is a great source. In your case 200w might be a bit light though. Remember, solar is only there for less than 1/2 the day! Calculate accordingly! Mounting is best across the stern on a rack.
MPPT is the way to go but I am not aware of the need for a special controller for wind generation voltage. I did a quick check on Amazon though and the special wind turbine controllers do not seem to be much different in cost.
Wind turbines are on Amazon at reasonable cost for 300w units, and with reviews. Shop to cut your costs!
Are you related to Admiral Kidd? Served in USS Kidd, DD 661, now a museum at Baton Rouge!
Good luck, Chief

 

[John Nantz]

Patrick - I like your style of looking into and investigating this new upgrade. The devil is in the details and this is an interesting project.

Question: Should we be responding with the assumption you’re on the Bay or in Alaska?

My preference is to have a high voltage/current capability for all the motor driven devices because they just start running better. The refrigeration falls into that category, but then there is the water pump, auto pilot, forced air heater (if there is one), etc. I also upped the wire size where ever I could to minimize voltage drop for the inrush current.

Having a pair of solar panels to help with the voltage and current for motor devices is being really kind to them so that’s really good.

Our boat has a pair of Kyocera 130W panels and I also have a Rutland 6-blade (1-meter diameter) wind generator but my instillation is over 20 years old now. The panels go to a Blue Sky controller and the Rutland has it’s own controller. There has been a lot of change since I put the system together but I’d like to see what you come up with. My battery bank is 4 golf carts and I used to have a group 27 start battery but it has been removed because it seems redundant. For a start battery I found that even a small car battery actually does a better job of spinning the engine! Go figure.

The Rutland isn’t what I’d call bothersome noisy at all. It is mounted on the stern opposite the radar and from our aft cabin one can barely hear it. Some areas where we cruise tend to have fairly good wind at night in the summer due (I believe) to the warm land mass and cool ocean.so the wind generator does well. On the other hand, with the long summer days the solar panels also do well but the days start getting short really fast in September. If you’re in Southeast Alaska with this rig then a wind generator would be helpful as the days are often cloudy and overcast due to inclement weather.

For the moment until there is a little more information, for the Bay Area, my initial suggestion would be to try four golf carts if there is room and the solar panels then see how it goes.

As for a wind gen “break”, our Rutland doesn’t have one. I attached a tether to the end of the vane and turn the unit around until the blades stop, wrap the tether once around one of the blades and then around the mast, above the braces, and call it good. The wind gen can then rotate on it’s own any way it wants to.

 

[patrickkidd]

Patrick - I like your style of looking into and investigating this new upgrade. The devil is in the details and this is an interesting project.

Question: Should we be responding with the assumption you’re on the Bay or in Alaska?

My preference is to have a high voltage/current capability for all the motor driven devices because they just start running better. The refrigeration falls into that category, but then there is the water pump, auto pilot, forced air heater (if there is one), etc. I also upped the wire size where ever I could to minimize voltage drop for the inrush current.

Having a pair of solar panels to help with the voltage and current for motor devices is being really kind to them so that’s really good.

Our boat has a pair of Kyocera 130W panels and I also have a Rutland 6-blade (1-meter diameter) wind generator but my instillation is over 20 years old now. The panels go to a Blue Sky controller and the Rutland has it’s own controller. There has been a lot of change since I put the system together but I’d like to see what you come up with. My battery bank is 4 golf carts and I used to have a group 27 start battery but it has been removed because it seems redundant. For a start battery I found that even a small car battery actually does a better job of spinning the engine! Go figure.

The Rutland isn’t what I’d call bothersome noisy at all. It is mounted on the stern opposite the radar and from our aft cabin one can barely hear it. Some areas where we cruise tend to have fairly good wind at night in the summer due (I believe) to the warm land mass and cool ocean.so the wind generator does well. On the other hand, with the long summer days the solar panels also do well but the days start getting short really fast in September. If you’re in Southeast Alaska with this rig then a wind generator would be helpful as the days are often cloudy and overcast due to inclement weather.

For the moment until there is a little more information, for the Bay Area, my initial suggestion would be to try four golf carts if there is room and the solar panels then see how it goes.

As for a wind gen “break”, our Rutland doesn’t have one. I attached a tether to the end of the vane and turn the unit around until the blades stop, wrap the tether once around one of the blades and then around the mast, above the braces, and call it good. The wind gen can then rotate on it’s own any way it wants to.

Thanks for the heads up on your setup and I will definitely report back. I am currently in SF Bay.

 

[SFS]

... But for the record, my daily minimum is fridge: 1.25ah, electronics: 6ah, fuel pump: 1ah = 8.25ah.

We don't have one, so I'll admit my ignorance, but this seems like an incredibly small amount of current to run a fridge for a day. Can you tell me what you have? I'll buy one tomorrow.

 

[Chief RA]

SFS: My reefer only draws .7 ah and it is 2.8 cu ft. My solar is 2.5 ah. Chief

 

[patrickkidd]

We don't have one, so I'll admit my ignorance, but this seems like an incredibly small amount of current to run a fridge for a day. Can you tell me what you have? I'll buy one tomorrow.

These values are estimated in amp hours per day. The fridge draws 2.5A when the compressor is running, and runs about half of the time I suppose. It is the NorCold icebox conversion kit. I couldn't speak higher of it.

 

[arf145]

These values are estimated in amp hours per day. The fridge draws 2.5A when the compressor is running, and runs about half of the time I suppose. It is the NorCold icebox conversion kit. I couldn't speak higher of it.

Which I think is why SFS is questioning your calculation of 1.25 AH for a day of refrigerator running!

 

[SFS]

These values are estimated in amp hours per day. The fridge draws 2.5A when the compressor is running, and runs about half of the time I suppose. It is the NorCold icebox conversion kit. I couldn't speak higher of it.

Ok, so you are not doing the math correctly. If the compressor runs 1/2 the time (12 hours a day), then 2.5 amps times 12 hours is 30 Ah, not 1.25 Ah, which is what you originally stated. There are lots of posts here on energy budgets, which is ALWAYS where you need to start. Chief is probably right, it looks like you need a lot of help here. Do some more research, and talk to fellow skippers about their systems, and ask more questions here. You may want to check out Maine Sail's site (marinehowto.com, I think). He is THE go-to resource on stuff like this. No sense in reinventing the wheel.

@Chief RA, current is measured in amps, not in Ah. Are you saying your refrigerator draws 0.7 amps when the compressor is running? If so, I'd like the make and model number. What percentage of the time does the compressor run? Is it DC only, or will it run on AC when you are at the dock?

Or are you saying that you average 0.7 Ah every hour around the clock, for a total of about 16.8 Ah in each 24-hour period?

 

[Chief RA]

His estimate of work time is about right. My reefer runs about 50% of the time and my amps are correct as well. The newest reefers do not use near as much power as the old ones. The per day statement is probably confusing the values. He is using about 30 amps per day since 2.5a x 12hrs is the calculation and that is because it is a new system. Chief
ARF145: I posted this while you were posting yours. Yes, my reefer averages .7a per hour over a 24 hr period. Will provide model info.
Please note that I am an Electronic Eng!

 

[SFS]

And your make and model of reefer?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Patrick,

I sailed SF Bay for 35 years. A 100ah battery UNLESS you are palnning to marina hop (in which case solar and wind would make NO sense) is plainly speaking ludicrous. Minimum 200ah bank, but 400 would be about right for anchoring out for two nights with no engine run. I did that regularly with no solar.

Wind on SF Bay is there, for sure. But when you stop for the night you want a quiet spot and no wind. The wind STOPS at night on the Bay and in the Delta.

It's foggy in the mornings, many times until 1200, and sometimes the fog never lifts.

Your weather comments are simply incorrect.

Solar is good.

Your numbers, as Chief said, are way off. You need to learn to do the math properly. My fridge draws 5A when running 50% of the time. 5 * 0.5 * 24 = 60 ah per day.

Many of the topics on this link may help you out.

Electrical Systems 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html
Good luck.

 

[Chief RA]

I have an Iso-therm reefer sold for trucker use. Bought in 2013 and can't find model online anymore. Just go to Iso-therm online and check out existing units for sale. Chief
Hi Stu! Thanks for the help. Chief

 

[patrickkidd]

Ok, so you are not doing the math correctly. If the compressor runs 1/2 the time (12 hours a day), then 2.5 amps times 12 hours is 30 Ah, not 1.25 Ah, which is what you originally stated. There are lots of posts here on energy budgets, which is ALWAYS where you need to start. Chief is probably right, it looks like you need a lot of help here. Do some more research, and talk to fellow skippers about their systems, and ask more questions here. You may want to check out Maine Sail's site (marinehowto.com, I think). He is THE go-to resource on stuff like this. No sense in reinventing the wheel.

@Chief RA, current is measured in amps, not in Ah. Are you saying your refrigerator draws 0.7 amps when the compressor is running? If so, I'd like the make and model number. What percentage of the time does the compressor run? Is it DC only, or will it run on AC when you are at the dock?

Or are you saying that you average 0.7 Ah every hour around the clock, for a total of about 16.8 Ah in each 24-hour period?

Patrick,

I sailed SF Bay for 35 years. A 100ah battery UNLESS you are palnning to marina hop (in which case solar and wind would make NO sense) is plainly speaking ludicrous. Minimum 200ah bank, but 400 would be about right for anchoring out for two nights with no engine run. I did that regularly with no solar.

Wind on SF Bay is there, for sure. But when you stop for the night you want a quiet spot and no wind. The wind STOPS at night on the Bay and in the Delta.

It's foggy in the mornings, many times until 1200, and sometimes the fog never lifts.

Your weather comments are simply incorrect.

Solar is good.

Your numbers, as Chief said, are way off. You need to learn to do the math properly. My fridge draws 5A when running 50% of the time. 5 * 0.5 * 24 = 60 ah per day.

Many of the topics on this link may help you out.

Electrical Systems 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html
Good luck.

Yes my math was wrong. I am dyslexic and frequently reverse things like division operations. This is neurological and my only option is to double, triple, and quadruple-check my work. I understand the relationship between amps/volts/watts and that my fridge compressor draws 2.5A and works about 50% of the time, so 12*2.5 = 30ah is correct. This forum is always a great source for quantitative analysis and I appreciate that.

HOWEVER, my requirements are still in flux which means my choice for battery capacity is still in flux. So I haven't gotten into the phase of checking my math yet. My question involves a qualitative survey of what others are/were using in their widely varying setups and requirements, including opinions on various brands. So I would still love to hear about your setups and brands.

Thanks

 

[Chief RA]

OK, poly 2 ea. 100w panels (30a controller) mounted on high ss rack w/ adj. angles to align with sun. They feed 2 ea size 24 Walmart wet cells, 100ah ea.. 9.9 hp Tohatsu provides up to 7a at 12v to batteries when running. Powers reefer (-.7ah) 15" DC TV (-2ah) LED boat lighting, electronic charging maybe -1a. This system is not new as Mono panels would be better, 4 golf cart batteries will eventually replace the 24's but it handles the 25' Catalina 250 quite well and it is self sufficient when decent sun. Hope this is more what you ask for.
Are you related to Admiral Kidd? Chief

 

[patrickkidd]

OK, poly 2 ea. 100w panels (30a controller) mounted on high ss rack w/ adj. angles to align with sun. They feed 2 ea size 24 Walmart wet cells, 100ah ea.. 9.9 hp Tohatsu provides up to 7a at 12v to batteries when running. Powers reefer (-.7ah) 15" DC TV (-2ah) LED boat lighting, electronic charging maybe -1a. This system is not new as Mono panels would be better, 4 golf cart batteries will eventually replace the 24's but it handles the 25' Catalina 250 quite well and it is self sufficient when decent sun. Hope this is more what you ask for.
Are you related to Admiral Kidd? Chief

Very cool, thanks for the deets. Haha!, If you mean Admiral Kidd from Pearl Harbor or the U.S.S. Kidd, the topic has been raised at family gatherings with inconclusive results! My hunch is that we are. What is cooler is that my last name is Stinson so everyone here in Marin thinks I'm rich because I own the beach. Then they find out I'm a liveaboard on a C30. Love it.

 

[Maine Sail]

There is a ton of gear out there and it's hard to tell what is quality and what is not, especially for hybrid wind/solar charge controllers. What have you used? Any brand names you would recommend?

Patrick,
There is no hybrid controller out there that I would install for both solar and wind.. To maximize each source they each need the right controller.

Et al.,

It is important to use correct units or measure of energy over time when discussing our 12V or 24V systems..

Correct: "I use 125 Ah per *day"
Correct: "I use 125 ampere hours per *day"
Correct: "I use 125 amp hours per *day"
Correct: "My battery is *125 amp hours"

*Day = 24 Hours
*125 amp hours at the 20 hour discharge rate

Incorrect: "I use 125 amps per day."
Incorrect: "My battery is 125 amps"
Incorrect: "I use 125 amps per hour"
Incorrect: "I use 125 amps/hour"

His estimate of work time is about right. My reefer runs about 50% of the time and my amps are correct as well. The newest reefers do not use near as much power as the old ones. The per day statement is probably confusing the values. He is using about 30 amps per day since 2.5a x 12hrs is the calculation and that is because it is a new system. Chief

Chief,

You're an EE, and seem to & should be be proud of it, so please lead by example use the correct terminology. It's frustrating, and leads to confusion, when even Electrical Engineers don't use the correct terminology. The statement; "30 amps per day" is incorrect. You could use 30 amp hours per day/24 hour period or 30 Ah per day or 30 ampere hours per day but not "30 amps per day".

ARF145: I posted this while you were posting yours. Yes, my reefer averages .7a per hour over a 24 hr period. Will provide model info.
Please note that I am an Electronic Eng!

As an EE I would ask you to lead by example.. ".7A per hour" is again, incorrect terminology. Your amperage is .7A. If you drew .7A for 24 hours then you used 16.8 amp hours. If your fridge has a duty cycle of 50% then your amperage is really 1.4A and the ampere hours used is still 16.8 Ah.

Amperage or Amps or "A" is an SI unit. The term "amps per hour" is incorrect. 1A for one hour is 1 ampere hour, but .5A for two hours is also 1 ampere hour. This is why "amps per hour" is not using the units correctly.

Using the correct units helps everybody and leads to a lot less confusion. As an EE you really should know this stuff inside and out and it should be rote behavior....

I know what people are saying but as an EE it is best for us to lead by example and not further confuse the issues.

 

[Chief RA]

Maine Sail: I do not need any corrections in terminology from you! You are not the resident authority, your title is Moderator. You are knowledgable but be more aware that many of us are as well. Sharpshooting is a cheap way to make yourself sound more important than you are! I resent your attitude and your conduct. I am not an Electrician Engineer. I am both an Electronic Engineer and Industrial Engineer. Chief