Tom. That would depend. Perhaps in college that was the best you could be. Now just trying to live up to the memory.
Do you - Accidental Gybe?
- Thread starter jssailem
- Start date
Someone mentioned the situation of going down wind, Guy has been steering the boat but hands the helm over to someone else and goes forward for some reason and an accidental jibe happens at a really bad time..
Well.. that pretty much also describes my case. We were headed down wind wing on wing and got near the marina entrance. No preventer.. I handed the tiller over to my wife, said just keep going in the exact direction as we are going. I went forward to remove the whisker pole. On the way back the boom swung around, caught me and took me over the lifeline. Fortunately the main was loose footed so I was able to hold onto to the boom or I would have been thrown in some mid 50's F water.
If your heading down wind and go forward for some reason.. make sure you know what or who is steering the boat is paying attention. Or.. a preventer. I imagine testing out a preventer might be a little on the stressful side also.
Well.. that pretty much also describes my case. We were headed down wind wing on wing and got near the marina entrance. No preventer.. I handed the tiller over to my wife, said just keep going in the exact direction as we are going. I went forward to remove the whisker pole. On the way back the boom swung around, caught me and took me over the lifeline. Fortunately the main was loose footed so I was able to hold onto to the boom or I would have been thrown in some mid 50's F water.
If your heading down wind and go forward for some reason.. make sure you know what or who is steering the boat is paying attention. Or.. a preventer. I imagine testing out a preventer might be a little on the stressful side also.
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Ya got lucky!
In the scenario you describe, it would have been prudent to go onto a broad reach before going forward. That would have reduced the chances of an accidental gybe.
And this is another good reason to have a loose footed main.
Yup, but not a serious one. I've used a preventer for years and it has done its job more than once. I stay on the helm and hand steer while sailing dead down wind. That way I can anticipate and adjust for a wind shift. While the Autohelm is very good, not as quick as the skipper's touch.
Terry has nailed an important skill.
Sailing down wind ‘a lot’ will build a sense of boat control. The more you do it the better you’ll become at anticipating the gybe and avoiding it.
We’ve found gybes to be dangerous and expensive so we’re preventing them by dropping the main if we have to run downwind. Not only is it safer, it is a lot quieter. If it takes us a bit longer we just adjust our schedule.
On occasion heading upwind I will do a “Crazy Ivan”, but only with light winds and extreme boredom. At our advanced age our resolve is to stay aboard and not get hurt.
I peaked too soon.
On occasion heading upwind I will do a “Crazy Ivan”, but only with light winds and extreme boredom. At our advanced age our resolve is to stay aboard and not get hurt.
I peaked too soon.
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One time! It happened to us while sailing due south in Narragansett Bay just before the Jamestown Bridge. That "Crazy Ivan" thing, All U Get is talking about.
The wind was about 6 knots from the the South East. We were just enjoying a nice calm sail, no heeling, no stress on the wheel, sails filled with just enough wind to move us along, nice easy ride out to Newport. I think we were doing about 3 knots.
In fact, we were eating a light breakfast of blueberry muffins and mimosa's. I remember it like it was yesterday!
When out of nowhere the boat spun like a top and we were now heading due North back up the bay. Same speed, same wind direction, everything except we were going in the opposite direction.
My wife looks over at me and asked "did you want to do that"? I guess the look on my face said all that needed to be said.
Nothing spilled, fell over or was damaged inside the boat and out.
We just spun.
We've done that same sail over the years numerous times under the same conditions and it has never happened again, or any other time we've sailed since.
Right after that, they literally blew the bridge up to remove it and replaced it with a new bridge.
Maybe the Gods sending a message, I don't know, but I never want to do that again.
The wind was about 6 knots from the the South East. We were just enjoying a nice calm sail, no heeling, no stress on the wheel, sails filled with just enough wind to move us along, nice easy ride out to Newport. I think we were doing about 3 knots.
In fact, we were eating a light breakfast of blueberry muffins and mimosa's. I remember it like it was yesterday!
When out of nowhere the boat spun like a top and we were now heading due North back up the bay. Same speed, same wind direction, everything except we were going in the opposite direction.
My wife looks over at me and asked "did you want to do that"? I guess the look on my face said all that needed to be said.
Nothing spilled, fell over or was damaged inside the boat and out.
We just spun.
We've done that same sail over the years numerous times under the same conditions and it has never happened again, or any other time we've sailed since.
Right after that, they literally blew the bridge up to remove it and replaced it with a new bridge.
Maybe the Gods sending a message, I don't know, but I never want to do that again.
Full time preventer rigged. An added benefit with a preventer is to have absolute control over the boom in a gybe. You can gybe as smoothly as coming about using the preventer as a brake. I also secure the boom out of the way of the companionway when docked or moored with the preventer. Keeps the boom quiet when sleeping on board.
I'm (probably) younger, and sometimes sail under jib alone as well downwind... I'm not going to win any races... but with a family on board, especially heading downwind, the mainsail doesn't help enough to justify the hassle/danger sometimes. This was even more true when my old boat had a mainsail I had to pull down/flake/tie/cover with halyards, lines ending at the mast, rather than running back to the cockpit, whereas I now have a roller furling main above a bimini, so I use it more than I used to... plus my kids are teens rather than toddlers, so IN THEORY they should be able to understand "Wait a minute" better when I'm busy with the sails, etc... ha... right... who am I kidding... that hasn't changed a bit.
Todd, one of the reasons for the thread was to help sailors understand the danger and to control it by using a preventer. I understand the statement of "hassle". It seems the that you have addressed it by having a "furling mainsail".
I find that the mainsail helps in two ways; maintain speed - when wing and wing DDW your boat has about 700squarefeet plus of sail area out capturing the wind as compared to 300 on the jib alone, and the mainsail helps to provide balance to the rig. That can only happen if you can keep the boom from swinging, thus the preventer.
It is also a consideration; how long will you be sailing in this direction? We have some 3-4 hour passages on one tack. Having a safe way to set the sails downwind can improve our sailing experience.
Never use a preventer. Had a bad experience in 1990 when the preventer ripped the toe rail off the deck of a borrowed boat. When running, just keep a constant eye on the sails and occasionally the windex. If a jibe is imminent, I grab the main sheet and lean back on it providing a human brake to the boom. Never had any loss of control with a smooth jibe. Even looks cool. Then I sail a 22 footer where the forces are low enough to not fling out of the boat. I never allow anyone at the tiller DDW as I do not trust their ability to walk the tightrope wing on wing without jibing. Since I mostly solo this is not really a choice.
I like it. Self preservation.
On smaller boats the option to control a 200 SqFt sail with shear manly force is one thing. I get it. I agree and have used similar techniques but probably not with as much flare as you describe. I may need to work on my technique.
To be able to do it with 300-500 SqFt is a different ball game.
Having the "preventer rip the toerail off the deck" is more of the way you attached the preventer to the boat and possibly not understanding the forces that were at play.
As I suggested in the first message I use a "Strong point - Bow cleat with backing plate/padeye with backing plate" to attach the preventer line. The preventer is attached to the end of the boom with a strong knot - bowline. The preventer is controlled in the cockpit and can be released as necessary.
Indeed the toe rail was not a good idea. Just followed the owners technique without thinking about the forces in a 30 foot boat. She didn't complain saying "I was waiting for it to happen to me" and that the toe rail needed replacement anyway. Bought her a very old Bordeaux to ease her pain. Now I'm older and (I hope) wiser. At 72 I thing about how much pain potential every action has before committing to it. I still bang my body up on every sail. Now it's because I can't move as quickly as I once could, not because I just wasn't thinking. Same thing with skiing. No more bumps, just cruising to minimize pain potential. Haven't fallen in 20 years, not me just much better equipment. Haven't been sailing as long as skiing so I still have some learning to do on the water.
The last time I was attempting to sail downwind w/o a preventer I handed the helm off to a crew with a lot of boating/sailing “experience” so I could go forward to adjust the pole. He jibed (accidentally) while I was returning to the cockpit. This was due to rolling seas from astern, etc. The boom hit me b/c I was standing on the coaming; not in the cockpit. The wind was not very strong so it did not strike hard. He looked clueless as to what had happened. As others above have noted, the helm must focus totally on sailing the boat.
Kretschmer relates instances where he elected to douse, or deeply reef, the mainsail (three reefing points), and sail under headsail only if mainsail is doused. The tactic is used mostly in heavier conditions. The boat tends to rock under headsail only, so the deeply-reefed mainsail helps with that.
There has not been much DDW sailing for us (i.e., Admiral & me) here on cruising routes, as in returning from the islands, where a broad reach is my lowest point of sail crossing the channels. Races, such as Newport to Ensenada are a different matter, where you are DDW or deep reaching nearly the entire course in some years.
I typically use the preventer but not very adeptly. It’s usually attached at a mid-boom point & led forward not too far to a turning block on a padeye amidships, then back to a cockpit cleat. I’ve read that the disadvantage of mid-boom attachment is that if the boat rolls over far enough leeward to where the boom strikes the water, the boom can snap outboard of the attachment point.
But that would likely not happen with the end-boom attachment jssailem describes.
Kretschmer relates instances where he elected to douse, or deeply reef, the mainsail (three reefing points), and sail under headsail only if mainsail is doused. The tactic is used mostly in heavier conditions. The boat tends to rock under headsail only, so the deeply-reefed mainsail helps with that.
There has not been much DDW sailing for us (i.e., Admiral & me) here on cruising routes, as in returning from the islands, where a broad reach is my lowest point of sail crossing the channels. Races, such as Newport to Ensenada are a different matter, where you are DDW or deep reaching nearly the entire course in some years.
I typically use the preventer but not very adeptly. It’s usually attached at a mid-boom point & led forward not too far to a turning block on a padeye amidships, then back to a cockpit cleat. I’ve read that the disadvantage of mid-boom attachment is that if the boat rolls over far enough leeward to where the boom strikes the water, the boom can snap outboard of the attachment point.
But that would likely not happen with the end-boom attachment jssailem describes.
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But you have to be careful; this often creates a bigger problem than the one you are trying to prevent. At some point on most boats, its better to get the mainsail gybe. Holding it back will often for sure break something, and the resulting rapid unloading is often much worse than the original gybe would have been. Or it will pin the boat over in a very precarious position.
When wing on wing, I usually move the traveler to the limit of its range. This allows the boom to only reach midship. A jibe is much gentler that way. I've also been known to pull the mainsheet in tight then grab the mainsheet just below the boom and ease the sail over when I want it to go. As for using the autopilot downwind, I usually do because it does a better job than I do (I get distracted often.)
Ken
Ken
You are correct.
Of note, this is for a cruising model where tacks are often long. When racing all of this is not used. Racing by nature is a constant adjustment trim experience, sailing on or near the edge. At least that is the way I sail in such conditions.
Perhaps this is the point in a nutshell. A preventer is not a fixer it is a tool to prevent the boom from swinging out of control across the deck while downwind sailing. If I do accidentally gybe, I release the preventer lead and can control move the boom to the opposite tack. I release the preventer and move it to the new tack position.
Of note, this is for a cruising model where tacks are often long. When racing all of this is not used. Racing by nature is a constant adjustment trim experience, sailing on or near the edge. At least that is the way I sail in such conditions.
All good points Jssailem. I wasn't very clear on a couple things. I guess I'm not so much claiming that dousing the mainsail is a better alternative to using a preventer. In my case it is more like... I haven't felt the need for the preventer, because often when sailing downwind, I'm sailing with only the genoa... unless the wind is super-light, in which case wing on wing isn't quite as scary (especially with calm seas). And yes, of course that's at the expense of the sails/helm not being as balanced without a main. I'm generally just out sailing around headed nowhere in a hurry, so sacrificing a bit of speed on this one tack isn't a problem for me, and your point of "how long will you be on one tack" is a very big factor. If I were in rolling seas for 8 hours straight, trying to get somewhere downwind, I'd be WAY more eager to rig a preventer... If I'm only going to be on a tack for 15 minutes, and I'm in no rush to get somewhere, it is harder to justify the effort. I'd be more likely to just change my course by 10-20 degrees. Good points.
If there's a decent breeze, and I'm going 5.5 knots under genoa alone, doubling the amount of sail isn't going to double my speed. More sail makes a big difference in very light air... but often I find that unfurling my mainsail down wind might only get me 1 extra knot... In very light air, if I'm trying to get somewhere "on time", I'm likely to fire up the engine. I'm not anti-preventer at all... I just have so many other ways to stay safe... and I'm lazy... and the preventer (in MY sailing life) always ends up being my second choice behind either furling the main, motoring, changing course, or something else. I certainly feel like I SHOULD add that to my arsenal though, for then the day comes that I do need it.
Some folks who sail in the NE trades from Iberia to Caribbean, I’ve read, may do so under twin headsails, one poled out on each side. No mainsail at all. So, if it’s a long DDW ride, a few to several hundred, or more, miles, rigging in that manner would give you the two sails for power but not the “headache”of rigging and watching boom preventers, etc.
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