Are backstays really necessary?

nick8489 · Dec 16, 2009

B&R Rig Myths

Barnacle Bill said:
The B&R (Bergstrom/Ridder) mast support system has been around for a long time (I think the 70's) and the first one's I have seen also used backstays. The systems you see today on later model Hunters do not have backstays and that raises questions as mentioned above. I do not know of any Hunter mast failures that I recall, so I guess it is not problematic for a boat considered to be a coastal cruiser at best or an inland classified vessel......."
We must try and get rid of the Bull S about B&R rigs without backstays on Hunters. What irks me is the throw away line above implying Hunters are only suitable for cruising around in sheltered waters:naughty:.
Hunters with this rig have circumnavigated.
All boats sold or entering European waters must have a CE classification. These classifications range from A to D. A being essentially for unrestricted sailing conditions and all the other categories for various conditions and waters in less than 40 knots of wind and 4 metre waves.
Hunter in common with most other current production yachts above 32 ft are manufactured to CE category A standards. (Catalina/Hunter/Beneteau/Jeanneau/Bavaria etc.) They are no different in this respect to the so called blue water yachts that everyone get excited about. They carry the same sort of gear (and that is what is liable to fail) like Selden masts and spars, furlex reefing, Lewmar/Harken deck gear and winches, Yanmar engines and so forth. Hunters also have lead fin keels and kevlar hull reinforcing. Underwater shapes are all very similar with wide flattish rear sections which beat the pants off old long keelers when reaching or going downwind. They are a lot cheaper because of volume production not lack of seaworthiness. Anyone that says otherwise is a snob, silly old fart or doesn't own a modern boat
I might also add in favour of the B&R rig that when my Furlex forestay broke last year the mast stayed up even without a backstay. I doubt any conventional arrangement would do so.
Attached please find a photo of the CE category A plate affixed to my 2004 Hunter 33 rendering it suitable for waves exceeding 4 metres and winds greater the 40 knots. It has had a bit of both with 45 knots and 5 m seas

Steve Dion · Dec 16, 2009

Nick:

Just remember it is called Ignorance.

"Ignorance is the state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information. This should not be confused with being unintelligent, as one's level of intelligence and level of education or general awareness are not the same. The word "Ignorant" is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware. The term may be used specifically (e.g. "One can be an expert in math, and totally ignorant of history.") or generally (e.g. "an ignorant person.") -- although the second use is used less as a descriptive and more as an imprecise personal insult."

Benny · Dec 16, 2009

Hermit if you look close you will see that by eliminating the backstay Hunter was able to enlarge the roach on the main making a more powerful sail. The jib can now be made smaller with fairleads on inside tracks which help in pointing ability. The shape of the hull has been redesigned by widening the stern and the arch just provides convinience by opening the cockpit and making it larger and more comfortable. I for one I'm very pleased with the performance of the design.

Ross · Dec 16, 2009

Being ignorant is like being dirty it can be cured. being stupid is like being ugly ,it goes clear to the bone.

Benny · Dec 16, 2009

Nick, looking at that CE Plate I see that the recommned maximum number of people aboard is 8 plus luggage resulting in some weight limits I could not read. I'm curious about the criteria utilized by the authorities to reach that figure. Here in the US the limit of passangers is left at the discretion of the boat's captain. I have had 15 people aboard for a dockside activity and the waterline hardly went down. Now it would not be practical to sail with 15 persons aboard as well as it would not be practical to take a trip with more than 6. Is that limit of 8 enforced by marine authorities or is it just a guideline?

Allan12210 · Dec 16, 2009

The 500 pound elephant in the room is that the later Hunters have even more pronounced swept back spreaders. That forms a triangulated support structure between the forestay and shrouds like a broadcast TV tower that won't fall down. The backstay was deemed redundant and eliminated. With this type of structure the mast could be made smaller in diameter reducing weight aloft. One drawback would be that the main can't be squared off as much when trying to sail dead down wind. However, reaching downwind with the large roach on the main is faster anyway.

George H260 · Dec 16, 2009

Here's the link that provides a detailed discussion on the advantages and disadvantages of the B & R rig:

Go to: http://sbo.sailboatowners.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=87

A recent article in Practical Sailor summarized the advantages of the B & R rig thusly: "We think this concept makes the most sense when used with a mainsail with ample roach and jiffy reefing. With this setup, the compromises when sailing off the wind and the lack of adjustability are offset by a more efficient and powerful sail plan...if you want a no-fuss rig with easy operation, look no further."

Joe · Dec 17, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
I have a backstay adjuster. I think it came with the boat originally.
I am not sure if my mast will bend. It is a uniform cross section from top to bottom as well as deck stepped.

Hermit, on your masthead rigged C30 the the spar is very rigid. It was not designed to experience much bending. Adjusting the backstay tension will affect FORESTAY tension. Therfore, on a masthead rig, the backstay is a headsail trim control.

On a fractional rig, the backstay also connects to the top of the mast, but the forestay connects much lower. This allows the backstay to impart mastbend and affect the mainsail shape. So on fractional rigs the backstay is a mainsail trim control.

You can see many examples of backstay-less rigs besides the B&R. Many racing dinghies, and almost all beach cats do not use them. They are typically rigged with swept back spreaders to form a tripod type of mast support. On beach cats, in particular, the mainsails typcally have a very large roach with 10-12 full size battens with adjusters. Also, the mainsheet tackle is very powerful, 8 to 1 and up. This system, along with a very high purchase cunningham system gives the cat sailor the power to bend the mast without a backstay. In addition, dinghy and cat sailors will have easily operated shroud adjusters giving them the option to pre-bend their mast to match conditions.

The bottom line is this. Your boat was designed with a backstay. It's primary purpose is to control forestay tension. I leave it up to you to find out why forestay tension is important.

nick8489 · Dec 17, 2009

Fat Folks!

Benny said:
Nick, looking at that CE Plate I see that the recommned maximum number of people aboard is 8 plus luggage resulting in some weight limits I could not read. I'm curious about the criteria utilized by the authorities to reach that figure. Here in the US the limit of passangers is left at the discretion of the boat's captain. I have had 15 people aboard for a dockside activity and the waterline hardly went down. Now it would not be practical to sail with 15 persons aboard as well as it would not be practical to take a trip with more than 6. Is that limit of 8 enforced by marine authorities or is it just a guideline?

Benny - The figure you could not read is the critical one 1089 Kg or 1.089 Tonnes. This is the maximum load, with full tanks, the boat can take if it is to be CE Cat A rated. The number of passengers is just a guide. If you want to carry a lot of fat people or heavy gear the H33 can have a Cat B plate with the appropriate loading. I forget the actual figure but it is something like 13 people and around 2 Tonnes. Maybe that is the way the Charter Fleets make their money

Plumper II · Dec 17, 2009

Often frac rigs have runners that insert at the same point as the top of the headstay. They are used to control headstay sag. Tensioning the backstay on a frac rig pushes the middle of the mast forward and can loosen the headstay.
I find boats with no standing rigging scary to sail on. I always find myself looking for places to hang on. I like standing rigging, all of it. Double lower shrouds, running backs, inner forestay, and all the regular stuff (forestay, backstay, uppers).
Finally, without a backstay where would the HF antenna go?

Salty · Dec 18, 2009

To answer the original question, "Are backstays really necessary?" It depends on the design of your rigging. It’s not required for the B&R rig because of the sweep back spreader as mentioned and successfully proven by Hunter, which can be seen all over the world. In my travels around the globe, I've seen many Hunters with B&R rigs and I don't think they flew them there. If the question is about preference, then I'll have to say I've come around to consider the B&R rig after a discussion with a Hunter rep at the Annapolis boat show. His point was the boat was design for most cruiser (most of us don't or cannot bend our mast), and it was a mast head rig, so the mast couldn't be bend using the backstay anyway. He also mentioned the roach advantage as stated earlier. So I think the B&R rig has proven itself over the years to be very reliable.

Ross · Dec 18, 2009

The simple truth is that to keep a mast up it must be supported in both the x and the y axis. If it were supported only fore and aft it would fall sideways. if it were only supported left and right it would fall forward or back. By setting the shrouds aft of the base of the mast you get fore and aft support and side to side support. A four legged chair can sort of work with three legs but a three legged stool needs all three legs.

DougH · Dec 21, 2009

That's the way it was explained to me. A 4 legged chair works fine if its square but a sailboat is normally not square. A 3 legged stool is more stable that a 4 legged rectangle. Its all about the design of your rig.

[FONT=&quot]BTW: I sail a 1993 Hunter 23.5 with no backstay.

Doug H.
[/FONT]

jibes138 · Dec 23, 2009

Not really

I wouldn't call backstays a necessity. IF you don't own a sailboat you certainly don't need them at all. Or a sailboat without a mast don't need them eaither. You really only need one if you have a traditionally rigged boat and intend to sail it, then it is an absolute necessity. One option is to get rid of all you riggin, mast, etc. and get one of these kites they use for kite boarding. Large container ships are starting to research using them as a way to reduce fuel. So like the Mary Poppins song, let's go fly a kite.

kenn · Mar 16, 2010

It's all design. If your rig was designed to not require a backstay, then you probably don't.

Our 19' boat's fractional rig was designed to not use a backstay, and after 30+ years, the design is proven. I haven't heard of any problems (eg control, dismasting) that is attributable to not having a backstay. We don't find that the rig is unmanageable, or flexes dangerously while broad-reaching or running.

Are backstays really necessary?

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