Are backstays really necessary?

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Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Are most of the forces on the rigging on the shrouds and forestay? I noticed a hunter 31 or 310 I think that has no back stay.
The backstay on my boat is the only rigging that hasn't been replaced in quite some time. Is that because it isn't as necessary to keeping the mast vertical? or just a lazy/negligent PO?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,697
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Are most of the forces on the rigging on the shrouds and forestay? I noticed a hunter 31 or 310 I think that has no back stay.
The backstay on my boat is the only rigging that hasn't been replaced in quite some time. Is that because it isn't as necessary to keeping the mast vertical? or just a lazy/negligent PO?

Those are most likely B&R rigs. Look at the aft sweep of the spreaders and it quickly becomes apparent that the uppers & lowers are acting also as the back stay. Your back stay sees plenty of load on your rig....
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
The early B & R rigs also had swept back spreaders and they all had back stays. I don't think you would want to any sailing (especially down wind) without a backstay.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,329
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Rigging is designed; it doesn't just happen. Fractional rigged boats and especially B&R fractional rigged boats are a special breed. There is a long but very informative discussion on the design criteria, strengths and tuning characteristics of these rigs here in the Knowledgebase which gives lots of good info but probably irrlevent to someone with a Catalina on which the backstay is even more crucial to the strength and integrity of the rigging. Moreover, if all the other shrouds have been replaced on your boat presumably for some reason, ignoring the backstay probably isn't a wise idea.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Consider this : when you are sailing, the sails are towing your boat. The sails are attached to the fore stay, to the mast and to the sheets. The forestay is attached to the mast head or somewheres close. Without the back stay what will support the mast when the sails pull on the forestay and the mast? There is some force heeling the boat but there is alot of force causing the boat to go forward. You don't want the mast to go without you.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
You don't want the mast to go without you.
That was funny.
I can let the backstay go slack. I guess the lower aft shrouds keep the mast supported back.
That hunter did have swept back shrouds, it also had poles going from the cabin top to the mast. It is a very well laid out cockpit. The coolest feature is the traveller is on an arch going over the the center of the cockpit.
 
Jun 9, 2008
1,792
- -- -Bayfield
The B&R (Bergstrom/Ridder) mast support system has been around for a long time (I think the 70's) and the first one's I have seen also used backstays. The systems you see today on later model Hunters do not have backstays and that raises questions as mentioned above. I do not know of any Hunter mast failures that I recall, so I guess it is not problematic for a boat considered to be a coastal cruiser at best or an inland classified vessel. The B&R rig does have more adjustable components which makes it more of a pain to tune and much of it has to be done aloft. The spreaders are swept WAY back to triangulate the mast support to eliminate the backstay. One problem with this is you cannot push the boom as far forward on a run as you can on most other boats. This means you will sail on the lee quicker than the average boat, which means you cannot sail as deep downhill. Hunter sales people will say that gybing downwind is faster than sailing dead down wind, which can be true, but if you are sailing down a channel, or between obstructions, this will be a detriment in my opinion.
If you sail offshore in extreme conditions, a backstay becomes a much more important piece of equipment. Going through big waves, especially to weather, can result in a boat pitching and a mast that pumps (that's why some have baby stays), but it is not al that simple. There are a number of different kinds of masts and mast designs.
Many small daysailors do not have backstays. But, consider how they are used.
A backstay certainly is not something you would remove because you have seen other boats without them. And if you have one, then consider yourself lucky and maybe you will sleep a little better.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
How do you compensate for the headstay tension without some manner of back stays? The last time I looked at a tall radio tower they had guys spaced at equal points all around. We don't have the luxury of unlimited ground for anchoring the shrouds and stays so we have to make do with the anchoring points we have. Look at the utility poles,they try very diligently to balance the loads on the poles. Where they are successful the poles are straight but where they have failed the poles are bent.
 
Jan 2, 2008
547
Hunter 33 (Cherubini design Forked River, Barnegat Bay, NJ
Answer: A back stay IS necessary on a standard masthead or fractional rig. In a B & R rig the pre-bend and swept spreaders eliminate the necessity of a back stay. The B & R rig, by it's nature and design does not pump unless it is left dangerously loose. The design brief was to eliminate fore stays and "baby stays", while keeping a very light yet very strong rig. The B & R rig circumnavigated many times.It is perfectly seaworthy. I own both rigs. My masthead Hunter 33 will pump. My B & R Hunter 260 will not pump. I can make the head stay on the 260 tight enough to keep sag well within reason. And I don't smack my head on a back stay.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,570
Hunter 27_75-84 Sandusky Harbor Marina, Ohio
Backstays, B&R rig

As already explained, your rig will come down in a reach or a run without your backstay. (Close hauled, your sail and mainsheet might hold the mast up.) Like our '77 h27, the backstay is essential to your rig.

On the other hand, I am aware of no data, or analysis on this site or elsewhere that shows the B&R rig to be any less sturdy and stable than our backstayed rigs under any conditions.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,140
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Hermit, with all due respect... that Hunter B&R rig is not the same animal as your masthead riggged Cat30. It's not better either. The backstay is there for a reason, you'll find that out if you ever fly a spinnaker in a breeze, or have to claw off a lee shore.

If you really want to get confused, look at a Freedom Yacht ..... no backstay....no forestay.... no shrouds.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Joe: Freedom has a forestay, just like my Hunter Vision. It is really wonderful without all of that rigging to worry about. When we are running downwind the main is like a chute. We have been out in 30+ kts with a full main running downwind.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,140
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Joe: Freedom has a forestay, just like my Hunter Vision. It is really wonderful without all of that rigging to worry about. When we are running downwind the main is like a chute. We have been out in 30+ kts with a full main running downwind.
Oh, yeah, sorry ... I always think of the cat ketch models. Well, that should make it even more confusing. heh, heh.

 
May 23, 2004
3,319
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
Hermit....you can buy, if you don't already have it, a pulley system to tension your backstay to bend your mast. This is a nice thing to be able to do at times for sail trim.
 
Jan 22, 2008
250
Cherubini 37c HULL#37 Alameda
On my boat the mast is held in place only by the lip of the mast boot and the standing rigging ? Its not fastened to the boat by any other means. If you're boat was designed with a back stay, it needs to remain in place. I wouldn't even be thinking about removing any thing. The pressures exerted on the cables under sail are tremendous. They absolutely need to be there.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Hermit....you can buy, if you don't already have it, a pulley system to tension your backstay to bend your mast. This is a nice thing to be able to do at times for sail trim.
I have a backstay adjuster. I think it came with the boat originally.
I am not sure if my mast will bend. It is a uniform cross section from top to bottom as well as deck stepped.
 
May 23, 2004
3,319
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
Hermit....i have the same boat. The mast does bend some when you adjust the backstay adjuster. If you go to your mast and look upward down the sail track then you can see where it is now. Then pull your backstay adjuster down hard and look at the mast. You will see that it has a bend in it now.
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,116
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
No Stays or Shrouds needed if You've Got a spare ~$150 million

No Stays or Shrouds needed if You've Got a spare ~$150 million -- No need for sheets either. See the link for pic's. Only apparent stay is to protect the radar/instrument mast.

http://lyonsimaging.smugmug.com/gallery/6142227_HoUAr#386639405_KGUuN

(For those that haven't seen this series of pictures before - although they were part of a thread topic last year - go through the sequence. The t-boning really did happen on SF Bay! Click on the smaller thumbnails to see the picture somewhat bigger. Right clicking on the bigger picture will give you zoom options up to 3X's. Take a look at the people on the Falcon's deck on the sailboat as they react both before and after. "Next" will scroll through the various pages of the portfolio. All-in-all, there are 40 pages of photos of the Maltese Falcon sailing in SF Bay. Some are quite good, such as sailing under the Bay Bridge.)
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Joe: I forgot about these models. Our HV'36 is very similar to the Freedom 36 (both have a forestay).

I must tell you that it will be very difficult for me to think about going back to a boat with a full complement of standing rigging.
 
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