RudderCraft.com kick up rudder - anyone have one I can ask Qs about and maybe get pics?

[Paceship.org]

RudderCraft.com kick up rudder - anyone have one I can ask Qs about and maybe get pics?

I’m considering buying one or making one similar and would love to get feedback/opinions on those that actually have one and thoughts on this design in general.

I really like the hydraulic shock controlled kick-up feature.

I’d be getting it for my Paceship PY23. I could get a 36” or 45” draft. I’d go with the fiberglass rudder rather than the HDPE

Rudder Craft

https://store.ruddercraft.com/image/cache/catalog/unifoil_b-750x750.jpg

RudderCraft.com has been helpful and responsive but their website lacks the details I’m curious about.

They apparently have a 0.05% failure rate of the 5,000 rudders they have out. There is some discussion about their pintles failing.

Please let me know if you have one of these and your thoughts on it.

Thanks,
Andy
Paceship.org

 

[rgranger]

I had a HDPE rudder craft (after market) rudder on a Balboa 26 ... it was a VERY nice rudder. The lift the foil provided was noticible and reduced the amount of effort it took to turn the boat.

 

[Paceship.org]

I had a HDPE rudder craft (after market) rudder on a Balboa 26 ... it was a VERY nice rudder. The lift the foil provided was noticible and reduced the amount of effort it took to turn the boat.

Great you like the performance.

Do you have the hydraulic kick up version? If so, may I ask for some pics and/or ask questions about certain parts of it?

 

[dLj]

Great you like the performance.

Do you have the hydraulic kick up version? If so, may I ask for some pics and/or ask questions about certain parts of it?

Ask your questions. While some of us may not have that rudder, from the photo it's pretty clear (at least in my mind) how it works.

dj

 

[Paceship.org]

Ask your questions. While some of us may not have that rudder, from the photo it's pretty clear (at least in my mind) how it works.

dj

The function is clear in my mind too. The questions I have are not answerable from the pictures (or video) and would take hands-on/eyes-on discernment and measuring...Like -

How much space between the hydraulic shaft and the SS side plate?

How is the hydraulic pin attached to the rudder blade?

Etc.

I'd love to walk into the factory in Idaho and see with my own eyes but its a 16 hour drive for me.

(video)

 

[jssailem]

I had a pop up rudder. Not sure why you would want the added complexity of a hydraulic system. I had a up haul and a down haul. Simple easy to move into position. The bungee on the down haul allowed the rudder to rise up when I ran up to the beach or hit a sand bar in the middle of the river.

The system shown looks interesting but expensive. Regarding the length, do you have issues of the rudder coming out of the water when you are sailing? Heel over and when the boat is on her side you broach? Longer rudder may not respond any better, especially if th rudder is deeper than the keel/center board. I always wanted my rudder to run more shallow than the keel/Centerboard

 

[dLj]

The function is clear in my mind too. The questions I have are not answerable from the pictures (or video) and would take hands-on/eyes-on discernment and measuring...Like -

How much space between the hydraulic shaft and the SS side plate?

How is the hydraulic pin attached to the rudder blade?

Etc.

I'd love to walk into the factory in Idaho and see with my own eyes but its a 16 hour drive for me.

Well I tried to take a look at the space but I'd need much higher resolution images and some known dimensions. It looks like 5 or 6 mm of clearance at the top but the image is so poor I can't even guess down at the rudder connection.

Clearly I can't guess about how they do the attachments.

I will say, those pintals look pretty flimsy...

dj

 

[rgranger]

Great you like the performance.

Do you have the hydraulic kick up version? If so, may I ask for some pics and/or ask questions about certain parts of it?

I did not have the kick up type. The balboa has a slot in the floor of the cockpit that the rudder body fits into and then the rudder post fits through the rudder body. You can pull the entire thing up (rudder/rudder body/rudder post/tiller) and lay it all on the floor of the cockpit.

 

[AaronD]

We've had a RudderCraft on our Catalina 22 since 2017. I'm guessing a model for a PY23 would be spec'd very similarly.

We're happy with the system, and plan to do the same on our Classic 26 (with slightly larger pintles, so hopefully stronger). We like the convenience and the smooth feel on the helm. And when we moor in a slip over the summer, I like the ability to flip the rudder up completely out of the water and avoid growth there (one less area to bottom paint). The integrated mast crutch has always worked nicely for us.

You're right that some users have had welds break. Maybe we've just had good luck. I'm suspect of the claim of "0.05% failure rate of the 5,000..." - .05% of 5k is 2.5, and we've heard of at least 2 failures here on SBO, and references to another one or two; hard to believe all the failures were by SBO regulars (0.5% - 25 out of 5k - might be a more believable number?)

Q: How much space between the hydraulic shaft and the SS side plate?
A: Tight between the cylinder and the plate - maybe .1" or so. About .3" between the shaft (outside the cylinder) and the plate.

Q: How is the hydraulic pin attached to the rudder blade?
A: Good question - you can see the screw and spacer in the attached image, but I have no idea how it's anchored in the HDPE itself.

 

[Paceship.org]

1st, thanks for the reply and the good repost and answering the questions....and for the reaffirming feedback on the product.

2nd -

You're right that some users have had welds break

yeah, saw that in the Catalina post, that's why I was thinking to build my own frame thinking RC wouldn't want to do additional customization. I was wrong. I talked to Jeff at RC today and the bad news is he won't sell me just the blade the good news is he's open to modifying the design for extra strength. This what I sent him - a square tube along the bottom that will allow welding from all four seams and provide additional torsion/twisting reinforcement.

Since it seems I won't have a chance to build my own, I probably don't need anymore technical questions answered :-( I was SO looking to building my own frame - now if someone could teach me how to create that blade in fiberglass with like a 0015 NACA profile maybe I could totally DIY it - but really, with the time I'd have into it, buying one makes the most sense as long as I can get it how I want it.

FWIW, this is the 50.4 lb monstrosity I'm replacing. The blade on this is SUPER heavy at 32.1 lb (the upper rudder is 13.3 lb and tiller is 5 lb)

also, to complement this thread, here is an insightful video I found on this kick-up rudder (surprisingly with 5,000 units in the field, not too much about them on the interweb)

 

[AaronD]

@Paceship.org : I might be misunderstanding...but to me it looks like your design provides more secure cheek-plate attachment - a good thing, but the weld failures I'm aware of were the pintle pins themselves - see Andre's thread, and ask @Gene Neill and @AndreInPortland for their experience. I think we'd all love an improved design from RC, but especially one that would address the pintle failures.

 

[Paceship.org]

to me it looks like your design provides more secure cheek-plate attachment - a good thing, but the weld failures I'm aware of were the pintle pins themselves

that is correct. it is a response to this cheek weld issue (also in the Cat 22 pintle thread) which is an impossible field fail/repair where as the pintle though not wanted, can be addressed with a spare on hand. Ruddercraft Lower Pintle Failure

I won't speak for RC on the 3/8 pintle issue (the explanation they gave me seemed reasonable) nd since I need 1/2" of which none have failed it is not an issue I hope to have to deal with.

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/attachments/img_9528-jpeg.222486/

 

[Paceship.org]

AaronD said:
to me it looks like your design provides more secure cheek-plate attachment - a good thing, but the weld failures I'm aware of were the pintle pins themselves

that is correct. it is a response to this cheek weld issue (also in the Cat 22 pintle thread) which is an impossible field fail/repair where as the pintle though not wanted, can be addressed with a spare on hand. Ruddercraft Lower Pintle Failure
_____
Actually my initial objective with this was the general stiffening of the blade in the frame to provide less flex (and thus less change of breaking welds) at both the flat side and of the back of the blade twisting in the frame. The only thing that stops the cheeks from spreading at the back is the center bolt. I've experienced this twist with my rudder and which I am looking to eliminate. This twist is effectively a twist around the pintle rod with the trailing edge being a foot out so it any force at the trailing edge is multiplied closer to the pintle rod.

Ideally the would also be an upper square tube reinforcement (blue in the attached image) though easy on the other side of the hydraulic shaft, I haven't figured out how to have the hydraulic work around the upper stiffener (hence my question above how much clearance between the cheek and hydraulic shaft.)

Just think of the force on the top part of that fulcrum (in the are of the blue) and is the fulcrum the center bolt hole or the bottom of the fame? In either case you have 36" draft of the blade leveraging 6" above the hole or 10-13" above the bottom of the frame. so at best its a 3:1(36":12") with the fulcrum at the bottom of the frame at worst its 7:1 (42":6") with the fulcrum at the bolt hole

 

[Gene Neill]

I won't speak for RC on the 3/8 pintle issue (the explanation they gave me seemed reasonable) and since I need 1/2" of which none have failed it is not an issue I hope to have to deal with.

Mine were 1/2" and they failed spectacularly.

 

[Paceship.org]

Mine were 1/2" and they failed spectacularly.

Did you report to RC? It would be a bummer if they lied to me cause once someone does that, its hard to have faith in anything they say.

 

[Gene Neill]

Did you report to RC? It would be a bummer if they lied to me cause once someone does that, its hard to have faith in anything they say.

Nope. I already had experience with their customer service, and didn't want any more of it.

To be clear, their kickup rudder is a fantastic design. I absolutely love it. Even though it requires modification before it's safe to use, I would buy another one tomorrow. But I wouldn't believe a word Ruddercraft says, other than when they say they know their rudders fall off, and they aren't going to do anything about it.

 

[Paceship.org]

it requires modification before it's safe to use

What modifications do you believe are required?

RC is willing to add the lower reinforcement tubes maybe they can add/modify the area(s) you noticed.

Thanks

 

[Gene Neill]

What modifications do you believe are required?

Remove pintles from their brackets. Drill the holes out cleanly.
Bend the brackets to 90 degrees (they are somewhat obtuse from the factory)
Bolt the brackets to the rudder frame and weld them in place. (mine repeatedly loosened over time)
Use clevis pins as your new pintles.

My brackets were already welded on when my pintles broke and the rudder fell off the boat, so I wasn't able to put the proper 90 degree bend on them.

 

[Paceship.org]

Remove pintles from their brackets. Drill the holes out cleanly.
Bend the brackets to 90 degrees (they are somewhat obtuse from the factory)
Bolt the brackets to the rudder frame and weld them in place. (mine repeatedly loosened over time)
Use clevis pins as your new pintles.

My brackets were already welded on when my pintles broke and the rudder fell off the boat, so I wasn't able to put the proper 90 degree bend on them.

View attachment 235417

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/attachments/new-pintles-png.235417/

Mine were 1/2" and they failed spectacularly.

Thank you. I saw your post/picture in the Cat22 forum but wasn't sure what all it tired to address other than a replacement pintle so thanks for the additional detail and the heads up on the loosening bolts of the bracket.

I see you have a bushing/sleeve/bearing (white) around the clevis pin.

I'm trying to resolve the pin size / bracket hole size / gudgeon size / pin spacer size relationship. If its on a Cat22, wouldn't the original pintle be 3/8" ?

What size is your gudgeon? 3/8" or 1/2"
What size is the replacement pin?
What size was the failed pintle? (if the failed pintle was 1/2" and gudgeon is 1/2" how did you remove a 1/2" pintle [leaving a 1/2" hole I conclude] and drill a smaller hole in the bracket to fit a smaller pin to allow for the bushing to fill a 1/2" gudgeon?

 

[AaronD]

...If its on a Cat22, wouldn't the original pintle be 3/8" ?...

Catalina moved from 3/8" to 1/2" pintles at some point in the manufacturing run, and the switch to 1/2" is a recommended upgrade for earlier boats. I think Gene's boat is recent enough that it came with 1/2", and I swapped mine when I replaced my rudder.

The 1/2" gudgeons are a little oversized and accept a low-friction bushing - as seen in Gene's picture. (I'm too lazy to pull my rudder off now and measure the actual hole diameter in the gudgeon, but something ~0.6").