Taking the mast down
- Thread starter john2
- Start date
Ok, I got a partial answer.
I did hear from the previous owner, and he was not present when the mast was removed for shipping the boat or when it was reinstalled, so he didn't see where it disconnected, but since no one grumbled at him at either end it likely was a normal process.
He would have been there, but it was in the middle of a major house move, relocating and starting a new job.
I did find a couple connections in the bilge behind the mast, near the float switch for the bilge pump. A union in the VHF coax and a set of splices in the data cable for the wind instrument. I'm glad I opened them up- they weren't well sealed and had got wet at some time in the past, there was corrosion especially on the coax connector. That will be cleaned up and resealed, the tied off much higher than before. Those wires feed through a smallish hole at the bulkhead between that bilge area and the compression post area, enough to use a messenger line to restring them, but not much more. I didn't find the wiring for the foredeck light on the mast, but it's in that area somewhere. No direct access to the small area below the compression post, maybe if I pulled up some more floorboards, but I'll wait and see what is at the mast base before doing that.
Haulout and mast removal scheduled for Dec 9, stay tuned.
I did hear from the previous owner, and he was not present when the mast was removed for shipping the boat or when it was reinstalled, so he didn't see where it disconnected, but since no one grumbled at him at either end it likely was a normal process.
He would have been there, but it was in the middle of a major house move, relocating and starting a new job.
I did find a couple connections in the bilge behind the mast, near the float switch for the bilge pump. A union in the VHF coax and a set of splices in the data cable for the wind instrument. I'm glad I opened them up- they weren't well sealed and had got wet at some time in the past, there was corrosion especially on the coax connector. That will be cleaned up and resealed, the tied off much higher than before. Those wires feed through a smallish hole at the bulkhead between that bilge area and the compression post area, enough to use a messenger line to restring them, but not much more. I didn't find the wiring for the foredeck light on the mast, but it's in that area somewhere. No direct access to the small area below the compression post, maybe if I pulled up some more floorboards, but I'll wait and see what is at the mast base before doing that.
Haulout and mast removal scheduled for Dec 9, stay tuned.
If there is corrosion on the connectors, you almost be certain that the corrosion has extended up the wire under the insulation, especially if the connectors are not sealed with heat shrink. As for the VHF antenna, it is time to replace the coax. Coax is especially sensitive to moisture intrusion and corrosion. Both of these will severely degrade the radio's reception and transmission.
Easy VHF Terminations - Marine How To
If You Don't Know How to Solder..... If you really don't know how to solder a VHF PL259 connector there are other options as you'll see below. This one is laughable, except that when this owner needed his VHF it was no joke or laughing matter that it failed to transmit. The previous owner or...
marinehowto.com
Also check the weep/drain holes at the mast base. mine were missing and when the mast base sealed du to dirt over the years the mast started leaking in the boat. i will make 4 half round 1/4 inch(2 on each side) openings at the under side of the mast. this way the will be no water at all on the base plate.
OK, our mast is down, the wiring for the antenna and the lights had disconnects at the mast base, the Raymarine wind instrument had disconnects in the bilge, aft of the mast in the bay with the bilge pump. Not the way I would have done it, but that's where it is.
Another issue came up. We got new sails a couple years ago, and the main was changed from the Dutchman setup to lazyjacks with an installed cover. The problem came up when I went to take the main off. The new main is loose-footed, there is one slug in the slot in the boom that ends up at the aft end where the outhaul attaches. But the cover that is part of the lazyjack system also uses that slot in the boom, and is forward of that slug. The only opening or wide spot in the slot is at the forward end of the boom, so the entire lazyjack cover had to be removed to get the sail off.
To get around this and be able to remove just the mainsail without removing the cover and it's lines would be to;
A- Cut the webbing that connects the foot of the sail to the slug and try to find a shackle small enough to fit through the opening in the slug, or
B- Cut another wide opening in the boom slot near the aft end to insert the slug there.
I'm leaning toward B, but am trying to decide where exactly to put the widened area. There is only about a 12" from the aft end of the cover to the end of the slot. What I don't remember is exactly where the slug ends up when the outhaul is tensioned, which affects whether I make the opening near the forward or aft end. I'd like to leave room forward of the slug when the outhaul is tensioned to allow for easing the outhaul if desired, but I don't want to widen it too far back in case the tensioned outhaul pulls the slug into the opening.
The boat manual says the length of the foot is 13 ft, but I talked to the sailmaker and he said that the last set they made for a 310 (possibly mine) was 13.25 ft, 3 inches longer.
If anyone has a picture of the aft end of their boom showing where the sail ends up in the slot, or has a measurement, it would be helpful. I realize that they aren't all exactly the same, but all info is useful.
Worst case is I reinstall it the way it came out (fairly big hassle if I have to do it alone like removing it) and cut the slot later when I can see the final position.
Another issue came up. We got new sails a couple years ago, and the main was changed from the Dutchman setup to lazyjacks with an installed cover. The problem came up when I went to take the main off. The new main is loose-footed, there is one slug in the slot in the boom that ends up at the aft end where the outhaul attaches. But the cover that is part of the lazyjack system also uses that slot in the boom, and is forward of that slug. The only opening or wide spot in the slot is at the forward end of the boom, so the entire lazyjack cover had to be removed to get the sail off.
To get around this and be able to remove just the mainsail without removing the cover and it's lines would be to;
A- Cut the webbing that connects the foot of the sail to the slug and try to find a shackle small enough to fit through the opening in the slug, or
B- Cut another wide opening in the boom slot near the aft end to insert the slug there.
I'm leaning toward B, but am trying to decide where exactly to put the widened area. There is only about a 12" from the aft end of the cover to the end of the slot. What I don't remember is exactly where the slug ends up when the outhaul is tensioned, which affects whether I make the opening near the forward or aft end. I'd like to leave room forward of the slug when the outhaul is tensioned to allow for easing the outhaul if desired, but I don't want to widen it too far back in case the tensioned outhaul pulls the slug into the opening.
The boat manual says the length of the foot is 13 ft, but I talked to the sailmaker and he said that the last set they made for a 310 (possibly mine) was 13.25 ft, 3 inches longer.
If anyone has a picture of the aft end of their boom showing where the sail ends up in the slot, or has a measurement, it would be helpful. I realize that they aren't all exactly the same, but all info is useful.
Worst case is I reinstall it the way it came out (fairly big hassle if I have to do it alone like removing it) and cut the slot later when I can see the final position.
I would not alter anything. I have a similar arrangement and it doesn't take much effort or time to remove the cover when removing the sail once a year. If the cover is going to stay on and the sail frequently removed, then maybe, but who does that besides pretty hard core racers and they don't use sail covers.
There is a lot going on with this msg. First the wiring.. Try to get wiring connections out of the bilge. Sloshing water on heel isn't good for the wiring.. especially in the salt.. Looking at the 310 specs, it appears like there are lockers in the v-berth area that back up to the bulkhead. That would be worth investigating to see if the connections could be made and unmade there.. On our C34 a hole saw was used to drill a hole at the bottom of the dinette settee that backs against the bulkhead. ALL mast wires come up thru this hole and are kept dry in this area. All of my connections (two) are 5 pins flat trailer light connections.A male and female feed up and mate with their corresponding partners. This removes the possibility of mistaken connection.
On the boom: We have a stack pack. The main sail until this past season was always completely captured in the boom slot. On my cover profile pic you can see the setup. The lazy jacks have brass hooks that capture the webbing loops on the pack. The foot of the pack used to close with wire ties under the sail and the toggles kept everything secure. In moving to a loose footed main this past season I simply got some 18" wire tied to go around the boom and capture the pack grommets. Works slick..
The end of the pack is held aft by the topping lift. I discontinued the topping lift sheet at the gooseneck and added a block to the end of the topping lift cable that drops from the mast head. Thru this block runs my new topping lift sheet. It is made fast on the stbd side and adjusted by a cleat on the port. There are small shackles on the lift sheet that capture the aft end of the pack.
On the boom: We have a stack pack. The main sail until this past season was always completely captured in the boom slot. On my cover profile pic you can see the setup. The lazy jacks have brass hooks that capture the webbing loops on the pack. The foot of the pack used to close with wire ties under the sail and the toggles kept everything secure. In moving to a loose footed main this past season I simply got some 18" wire tied to go around the boom and capture the pack grommets. Works slick..
The end of the pack is held aft by the topping lift. I discontinued the topping lift sheet at the gooseneck and added a block to the end of the topping lift cable that drops from the mast head. Thru this block runs my new topping lift sheet. It is made fast on the stbd side and adjusted by a cleat on the port. There are small shackles on the lift sheet that capture the aft end of the pack.
Our mast is deck stepped with the wiring going down the compression post to the bilge area. I'm not sure how I'd get the wires out of the compression post above the bilge. They don't get disconnected very often, I can join them with butt splices that have a heat shrink covering, cover that assembly with shrink sleeve over the whole thing, then wrapped with self sealing tape. Tie the junction up as high as I can get it in the bilge. If Raymarine had their way, you'd disconnect it at the display and unstring the entire length out of the pulpit, and the bilge. I had to do that when I replaced the knotmeter transducer.
I guess I've been using the terms lazyjack and stackpack interchangeably, it's all one setup on mine. It's the foot of the stackpack that in is the boom slot for it's entire length. There is no opening in the botttom. So to remove it I have to completely slack or remove the lazyjack lines, get enough slack, then pull the stackpack out of the forward boom slot. Then I can bring the slug at the aft end of the sail forward and remove it from the boom.
You mentioned that your stackpack closed he foot with wire ties under the sail. I wish mine was like that.
Right now, since I can't figure a good location for enlarging the slot, my thought is put it back together as it was, wrestle the sail and stackpack into place, and once it's installed I can pick a spot and enlarge it later. The new standing rigging will be back from the rigging shop tomorrow, so they'll want to restep the mast fairly soon. I took it off by myself, and it was a bit of a circus. Newish, stiff sail, and the the stackpack isn't easy on it's own. The long piece at the foot that goes into the boom slot isn't flexible like the rope on the foot of a sail, and it has battens in the stackpack. So I have to get the mainsail slug in first and pulled aft, the feed the stackpack around the flopping sail and stuff it's length down the boom.
It's mostly really awkward to do by myself. My wife doesn't know it yet, but she is going to "volunteer' to come down to the boatyard and help. She can handle it and knows what she is doing. Back in her 20's, decades ago, she and her first husband built a Bristol Channel Cutter from scratch. Made the molds, laid up the foam core fiberglass, made the interior, made the spars, and she sewed the sails. She knows fiberglass, wood, paint, etc much more than I do. I'm the systems guy, I'll get it all to work. 43 years of turbine aircraft maintenance, I must have learned something!
if you make an opening at the end/aft of the boom just in front of the block for the outhaul.
that would make life more simple. just long enough to put the slug in and out. We got the old style sail (not the original)
the outhaul block is all the way at the end of the boom. The left bolt is for the reefing blocks.
The bilge , in front and aft of the mast should be dry. at most some water in the keel recess.
that would make life more simple. just long enough to put the slug in and out. We got the old style sail (not the original)
the outhaul block is all the way at the end of the boom. The left bolt is for the reefing blocks.
The bilge , in front and aft of the mast should be dry. at most some water in the keel recess.
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Friend who also has a C34 HAD a Doyle stack pack... probably the worst configuration I've ever seen.. The sail was sewn into the pack. It took three men and a boy to set the pack on the boom in the spring. Coming off in the fall only 2 men an a boy.. Too much combined weight and very inflexible.. He ended up making someone a great deal on pack..
Thanks for the picture, that helps.
I was leaning toward that approach, widening the slot near the aft end of the boom, but as I explained in post #25, there is some uncertainty on the exact length of the foot on my sail. The manual for the boat says 13 ft, the sailmaker we got ours from says the last main they made for a 310 was 13.25 ft. I don't want that extra 3 inches to put the slug too close to the end of the slot at full tension. The slug is 3 inches long, so the widened part of the slot needs to be nearly that.
Right now the boat is out of the water on the stands, the mast is off and next to the boat, the boom and stackpack are up on deck, and the sails are in the cabin. No good way to lay out the main and measure it. So I'm going to go with plan B as in post #28, put it back together the way it was, as much trouble as that is to do, and once the main is in place, see where the slug ends up and pick a spot to enlarge the track then.
I don't expect to remove the main very often, not like the racers I know, but improving the installation anyway is a good thing, and an aid to any future owners. Just like the oil change pump mod the previous owner did- it was a bit of fuss to install originally, but I say a word of thanks to him every time I change the engine oil- it makes the change easier, quicker, and less messy than changing the oil on my car.
Both the new standing rigging and the bottom paint should arrive today. The bottom is sanded and ready to paint, so it shouldn't take too long to do two coats and attach the rigging to the masthead fitting and be ready to launch. The yard is a bit shorthanded with a couple guys out sick, and the launch and restepping the mast does take a bit, so I'm not sure exactly when they plan to put it in the water. Maybe by this weekend, maybe not. I'm not rushing them (much), I'd rather have it done right than quick.
Update to the continuing saga;
The bottom paint work is done, and the boat is in the water, but no rig on it yet.
After delays due to Christmas week, the plan was to launch the boat, step the mast, and tune the new standing rigging last Friday morning. Feeling bad about the delays, the yard manager said they would put off anything else that day and get the rig up, reinstall the boom, and help me wrestle that mainsail and stackpack into place.
Of course Friday brought a large swell, causing a strong surge, and enough wind to make hanging the mast on a crane and trying to step it on a boat dancing in the surge a risky operation, so it was put off until yesterday (Monday).
Bright and early Monday, they sling the boat into the water, then bring the mast with all the nice new shrouds and stays on it up to the crane on the travel lift. Just before hoisting the mast, one of the crew notices that one swaged fitting on the backstay doesn't look quite like the others, gives it a tug and it comes right off the cable, it was never swaged! They yanked on all the others, but they seemed good.
The boatyard did not make up the new rigging, they sent the old wires up to Svendsens Rigging in Alameda for duplication, who have been doing rigging for decades with a good reputation, so not the yards fault.
They FedEx overnighted the backstay to Svendsens, who were going to swage it and overnight it back. But tomorrow is New Years Day, so no work then. They should get it Thursday, then we can reschedule the mast step and tune. I looked at all the other fittings and they do appear to be swaged, we'll see when everything is tightened up.
I've installed and swaged large cables and fitting like this on large aircraft, and checking for proper swaging (measure the diameter of the swaged fitting) isn't difficult, but it has to be done to be sure of getting the right compression of the fitting.
At least they caught it before the mast was stepped, or even worse before I went sailing.
Svendsens admitted to the error (no kidding), but no word yet on any adjustment to the bill for the delay and aggravation they caused, but I'm pushing.
More delays, and of course today and the next two days are great sailing conditions here. I can be understanding and patient about holiday delays and weather issues, but no mercy for a screwup like this.
The bottom paint work is done, and the boat is in the water, but no rig on it yet.
After delays due to Christmas week, the plan was to launch the boat, step the mast, and tune the new standing rigging last Friday morning. Feeling bad about the delays, the yard manager said they would put off anything else that day and get the rig up, reinstall the boom, and help me wrestle that mainsail and stackpack into place.
Of course Friday brought a large swell, causing a strong surge, and enough wind to make hanging the mast on a crane and trying to step it on a boat dancing in the surge a risky operation, so it was put off until yesterday (Monday).
Bright and early Monday, they sling the boat into the water, then bring the mast with all the nice new shrouds and stays on it up to the crane on the travel lift. Just before hoisting the mast, one of the crew notices that one swaged fitting on the backstay doesn't look quite like the others, gives it a tug and it comes right off the cable, it was never swaged! They yanked on all the others, but they seemed good.
The boatyard did not make up the new rigging, they sent the old wires up to Svendsens Rigging in Alameda for duplication, who have been doing rigging for decades with a good reputation, so not the yards fault.
They FedEx overnighted the backstay to Svendsens, who were going to swage it and overnight it back. But tomorrow is New Years Day, so no work then. They should get it Thursday, then we can reschedule the mast step and tune. I looked at all the other fittings and they do appear to be swaged, we'll see when everything is tightened up.
I've installed and swaged large cables and fitting like this on large aircraft, and checking for proper swaging (measure the diameter of the swaged fitting) isn't difficult, but it has to be done to be sure of getting the right compression of the fitting.
At least they caught it before the mast was stepped, or even worse before I went sailing.
Svendsens admitted to the error (no kidding), but no word yet on any adjustment to the bill for the delay and aggravation they caused, but I'm pushing.
More delays, and of course today and the next two days are great sailing conditions here. I can be understanding and patient about holiday delays and weather issues, but no mercy for a screwup like this.
Wow, what a good catch by the yard crew! That could have been disastrous. I hope you get out sailing soon.
Yup!
Aside from the possible disaster if it had failed under sail, if they had already stepped the mast and connected the wiring, and had it come loose when they were tensioning cables, they would have had to unstep the rig again to get to the fitting.
As it is, it is a big disruption to the yard work schedule. They had cleared that day of many other projects to work on getting my delayed project complete, now it all has to shuffle again.
I did make sure that the yard manager knew how much I appreciated it being caught, and that the guy who found it should get extra brownie points!
The yard is actually leaning on the rigging shop even more than I am for an adjustment to the bill, since they are the ones that sent it to the rig shop. For me it's a big inconvenience, for the yard it's a significant hassle.
We'll see. I'm not counting on it, but not giving up yet.
Jan 12 update to the Dec 31 update; still waiting on the mast restep.
The original error in swaging the backstay was Svendsen's, and they have admitted to it. But in addition to that there seems to have been a series of communication failures between the boatyard and the rigging shop. I can't say where the ball was dropped in there, I wasn't in on the calls, but each side appears to have been expecting the other side to do something that didn't happen. Overnighting the unswaged backstay to the shop for swaging and reship it next day, send the backstay on the weekly truck from the shop and return, build another from scratch and overnight it, etc, all options that were discussed but not done.
Even though no one was denying responsibilities, the other two entities were not making progress, so last Tuesday I jumped in more. On Svendsen's website I found a customer survey, and I filled it out in detail. I laid out the timeline with all the dates, steps and conversations I knew of. To both questions on whether I would return to Svedsen's or recommend them, I answered a solid NO.
About an hour later the shop manager called me. Very apologetic, it appears that the communications between my boatyard and the shop were just between the boatyard manager and the salesman, who wasn't passing information completely to the shop itself. He seemed somewhat irritated that he had not been made aware of the original error or subsequent communication failures while trying to correct the issue.
He has assured me (verbally) that once the situation has resolved and my boat is back together, there will be adjustment or compensation from them. He asked for the name of the yard worker who spotted the problem so he could send him something as thanks.
He drove the freshly swaged backstay down here to Monterey yesterday, Saturday and put it in my hands, I'll deliver it to the boatyard on Monday, they are closed weekends.
The latest plan with the yard is I will motor the boat from the slip to the yard first thing Tuesday morning and they will step the mast, reconnect the wiring, give the rig a tune, reinstall the boom and help me wrestle that mainsail/Stackpack circus into place.
So, progress has been made, the backstay is ready for the mast restep.
Unnecessary delays are always annoying, but unlike much of the country our weather has been glorious for a week and a half. Clear skies and temps around 60F. Enough wind to sail, but not too much.
We are also busy packing up the entire house for a move- a few hours on the water would have been a very welcome break.
Wish me luck!
The original error in swaging the backstay was Svendsen's, and they have admitted to it. But in addition to that there seems to have been a series of communication failures between the boatyard and the rigging shop. I can't say where the ball was dropped in there, I wasn't in on the calls, but each side appears to have been expecting the other side to do something that didn't happen. Overnighting the unswaged backstay to the shop for swaging and reship it next day, send the backstay on the weekly truck from the shop and return, build another from scratch and overnight it, etc, all options that were discussed but not done.
Even though no one was denying responsibilities, the other two entities were not making progress, so last Tuesday I jumped in more. On Svendsen's website I found a customer survey, and I filled it out in detail. I laid out the timeline with all the dates, steps and conversations I knew of. To both questions on whether I would return to Svedsen's or recommend them, I answered a solid NO.
About an hour later the shop manager called me. Very apologetic, it appears that the communications between my boatyard and the shop were just between the boatyard manager and the salesman, who wasn't passing information completely to the shop itself. He seemed somewhat irritated that he had not been made aware of the original error or subsequent communication failures while trying to correct the issue.
He has assured me (verbally) that once the situation has resolved and my boat is back together, there will be adjustment or compensation from them. He asked for the name of the yard worker who spotted the problem so he could send him something as thanks.
He drove the freshly swaged backstay down here to Monterey yesterday, Saturday and put it in my hands, I'll deliver it to the boatyard on Monday, they are closed weekends.
The latest plan with the yard is I will motor the boat from the slip to the yard first thing Tuesday morning and they will step the mast, reconnect the wiring, give the rig a tune, reinstall the boom and help me wrestle that mainsail/Stackpack circus into place.
So, progress has been made, the backstay is ready for the mast restep.
Unnecessary delays are always annoying, but unlike much of the country our weather has been glorious for a week and a half. Clear skies and temps around 60F. Enough wind to sail, but not too much.
We are also busy packing up the entire house for a move- a few hours on the water would have been a very welcome break.
Wish me luck!
