Update: my next step is to test the starter switch and replace it if defective. I’ve been out of town and have not had the chance to do that. Totally unrelated question though… I’ve been googling and reading. There is talk of these boats having an “Ammeter” which can be problematic. See the photo. Does the photo indicate that I have the dreaded “Ammeter” style control panel? It says “Amps”
Starter motor burned up?
- Thread starter BTC1984
- Start date
Yes. Voltmeter is good enough. My panel had an ammeter when I purchased it in 2008. It was gone and replaced with a voltmeter in 2010.
To replace my Ammeter does that require a difficult rewire of the whole system ? Or is it pretty simple and easy. ?
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,852
No
Perhaps it would be relevant to ask why do you have an amp meter and what does it tell you? Is that useful information?
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,852
Here is a basic layout of the wiring with the Ammeter (Amp Meter) in the circuit.
As you can see, it sits between the alternator and the battery on the positive wire (through the ignition switch) on one side. The other side connects to the starter solenoid also on the positive side of the battery.
As you can see, it sits between the alternator and the battery on the positive wire (through the ignition switch) on one side. The other side connects to the starter solenoid also on the positive side of the battery.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,852
I find a meter showing voltage and battery condition far more informative on a cruising boat. Such a meter lets me know if the charge I am providing to the batteries is working and with the proper meter how much battery charge is left. I find this information more relevant than the current is flowing through the wires.
The volt meter needs to sit in the circuit differently than an amp meter, so it’s not just a drop in replacement. The amp meter sits inline in the wire from the alternator to the batteries so it can measure that current. A volt meter sits between a positive wire and ground. How difficult of a change that will be depends on how the rest of the wiring runs around the boat, so other Catalina 27 owners would be the experts on that part.
It tells you you may have dangerous wiring, so that's useful.
It's not too hard. You can do a work around and replace / rewire what you think is necessary.
Read this:
Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade - Marine How To
Engine Panel With Ammeter = Dangerous If your Universal engine panel looks like this, and has an ammeter, you are due for some critically important wiring upgrades. The factory wiring, with an ammeter in the panel, is
marinehowto.com
If the article helps you can consider donating a few bucks to help keep the marinehowto site alive.
Off topic but related, you should also check out this article.
You can also go to the technical section in Catalina Direct and they have technical articles on it as well. The ammeter overloads and slows down recharging as well and there is an upgrade for that as well. I still would also check the wiring harness connectors at the engine and the back of the panel. The one that fails the most often is the one behind the engine.
Just to clarify the first half of your sentence here, it is NOT the ammeter that slows anything down, it is the undersized wiring between the alternator, the ammeter and the batteries. When ammeters were installed in boats in the 1970s, electrical loads were low. As loads grew, builders did not change the wiring to keep up. Catalina and others wrote that repair guide specifically to address the issue and to replace the ammeter with a voltmeter and to no longer use that undersized wire to carry current. While Maine Sail may have written that great article, as far as I know Gerry Douglas of Catalina Yachts did it first, and here it is:
Engine harness upgrade: A comprehensive overview by Gerry Douglas
I’ve lost three (3) starters over 24 yr in the manner you describe. Starter does not disengage from flywheel and starts to overheat. A burning smell and sometimes smoke rises from engine area. Once this happens the starter is destroyed. When close, I can hear the starter motor whirring. If you touch it and it is hot (but not smelling) shut down the diesel and the starter might survive.
Take the burned out starter to an alternator/starter repair shop and swap it for a rebuilt one, leaving the old one for a slight discount. Repair guy tells me corroded contacts can lead to that failure. Keep them clean; I guess I am not doing a good enough job at that. If the ignition switch does not recoil and release it, the starter will stay engaged and eventually burn out.
Take the burned out starter to an alternator/starter repair shop and swap it for a rebuilt one, leaving the old one for a slight discount. Repair guy tells me corroded contacts can lead to that failure. Keep them clean; I guess I am not doing a good enough job at that. If the ignition switch does not recoil and release it, the starter will stay engaged and eventually burn out.
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Try to update your amp gauge!!
Personally i think it is more important than a volt meter
Yes the volt meter will tell you if the alt is working BUT an amp gauge will tell you more about how well it is working
I watch my amp meter as much as my oil pressure gauge when motoring when you pay attention to it for a while you can judge its health
Personally i think it is more important than a volt meter
Yes the volt meter will tell you if the alt is working BUT an amp gauge will tell you more about how well it is working
I watch my amp meter as much as my oil pressure gauge when motoring when you pay attention to it for a while you can judge its health
That may be true for you, but for others just seeing the correct voltage is all that is necessary because we have battery monitors and can measure our amp use, so instantaneous amperage is comparatively unimportant.
That said, if you still have an ammeter in the cockpit panel and you have what are now-normal electrical boat loads, I hope you've significantly increased the size of the wiring to and from that ammeter.
Right. The stock wiring puts the full load through a long run of only 10 gauge wire.
Update: I tested my starter switch with a multimeter. Photo 1 is when I pull the starter switch = 12.59. Photo 2 is when I release the switch = 1.49. I did it ten times. Same results each time. Is this normal?
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Looking at your dates in your post#7, I'm guessing this is an intermittent problem with the pull ON switch. The ultimate SOB problem to locate. You may spend months before this repeats itself again OR you can take the easier road and replace the ON switch with a new one and hope that was the problem.
While you're thinking about that one, consider installing an indicator light to the terminal you used in your post #36 and then another wire to ground. Temporarily run the light to a location where it can easily be seen when out in the boat. Get an alarm and you've still got power going to your starter motor.
Update: I read the article on Catalina direct about the issues with the original 8 pin wire harness set up and the problems with the Ammeter which I have. It’s pretty clear this should have been PROACTIVELY replaced long ago. In light of the fact that I now have some kind of electrical issue, should I just go ahead and upgrade the control panel wiring with the kit form Catalina? Maybe I get lucky and it solves my mystery electrical issue.
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jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,852
I think that would be a smart idea.
Use of the Catalina kit or independent wiring would be good.
This is not exactly the most informative item I have ever read. Taken from the Engine Wire Harness Upgrade notice above.
You have been given some good ideas here to solve your starter problem and yet you continue to bounce back and forth between the ammeter gauge, the wiring harness, the pull starter and anything else that pops up and catches your eye. This is an intermittent problem which requires a logical approach and a good deal of time. Approach each possible solution and complete its proof or fallacy before going on to the next possible solution.
Good luck. You definitely need it in large quantities.
No, I don't think this is a wise move when dealing with your burned starter motor problem.
You're not in this to get lucky. You're going through this exercise to find out what is causing your starter motors to burn. The problem with the wiring harnesses is found in both Catalinas and Hunters. I experienced it. All of the problems dealt with poor conductivity. That is not your problem. You are looking for something which feeds power to your starter relay (solenoid) when it should not. It has nothing to do with your wiring harness unless the harness has an intermittent short in it.
You have been given some good ideas here to solve your starter problem and yet you continue to bounce back and forth between the ammeter gauge, the wiring harness, the pull starter and anything else that pops up and catches your eye. This is an intermittent problem which requires a logical approach and a good deal of time. Approach each possible solution and complete its proof or fallacy before going on to the next possible solution.
Good luck. You definitely need it in large quantities.
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