I get it. But this is not public restroom poop, this is yours. Sort of like changing a diaper or using TP on your own butt. Just sayin.' Wash your hands, certainly, but don't freak out. This is no different than changing a diaper. Man-up, guys.
Pumpout Carts Suck
- Thread starter Foswick
- Start date
And I am so glad that the Maryland solution uses fix stations and not a cart I have to lug around. That has got to be heavy, more than 100 pounds MT and 400-500 pounds with a full tank. That sounds unpleasant and unsafe. The OP is 100% right about that.
PS. I use a desiccating head on my new-to-me F-24. A better answer for day sailing, IMO. I don't cruise anymore.
PS. I use a desiccating head on my new-to-me F-24. A better answer for day sailing, IMO. I don't cruise anymore.
That's just it, though. It isn't just your own, unless you have your own private pumpout station. The hose itself is contaminated with every user since the hose was manufactured or last disinfected (if ever). The nozzle is infected by anything that touches the nozzle which definitely includes a long list of strangers. Anything that touches the nozzle is infected by the nozzle.
If it were simply one's own waste, I wouldn't worry about it. We don't poop on our boat, and urine is pretty safe. So, if it were just that, I wouldn't sweat it. But, everything on the pumpout station is contaminated with the fecal waste of an unknown number of users, then incubated in a consistently moist environment. Carts are often/usually parked in a little shed, which also keeps the environment warm.
For the entire time I worked in the ER (about 3 years), I never so much as caught a cold because I don't take on other people's germs. I'm not a germophobe, but when you know a thing is contaminated, that is different. In the ER, the saying was, "If it's moist and isn't yours, don't touch it."
The problem with the process is that it makes it extremely difficult to contain the contamination. This isn't like changing a diaper. It is more like changing a diaper on a horse, in terms of the scope of the problem. I get that you don't see a problem. That's fine. But, objectively, it is a job that presents a number of challenges that make it difficult to contain the contamination. If you are using a public pumpout, then dealing with other people's waste. And, when dealing with other people's waste, you honestly cannot be too careful. True, most of the most likely pathogens in North America won't kill an otherwise healthy person, but they could definitely ruin you for a few weeks.
Hmm ... that makes me curious. I have the equipment to take cultures from pumpout nozzles and incubate in a petri dish. I'm curious what is actually living on various surfaces. I wonder if it would be too creepy to walk around and swab people's decks around their deck fittings.
Perhaps part of my attitude springs from using this sort of equipment with highly corrosive chemicals, like 40% ferric chloride, 40% caustic, and concentrated acids. No, you don't get it on anything but your gloves. It's all about developing habits about how you move. I never had contact with anything other than my gloves. I hear of people getting sprayed; if they were dressed in shorts and a tee shirt and did that with ferric chloride they would be going to the ED and might not see again.
The pumpout systems in Maryland are outside in the rain and in the sun (UV). I imagine that too makes a difference. The whole idea of a mobile cart seems like a mistake. Too many hazards. I wouldn't use it, legal or not. Just telling the truth. I would probably get an Electrosan.
It's actually how they are classified. But -generally- the current "proponents" like the term composting heads while the current "detractors" prefer to use the term desiccators. Technically they are classified as mouldering heads. I would have to look up the appropriate reference material... since it would take me a fair amount of time, my motivations are low...
dj
I get it that you are creeped out about pump out facilities but I don't get the point unless you are saying that you prefer not to have to do this job at all. We all have to deal with it, unless you are managing your own desiccation head. That appears to be the preference of many and I think that is fine, but not for me necessarily.
In my experience, most operators simply drop the hose and the nozzle into the water to rinse it off anyway. I'm sure some will be horrified to hear this, but most of us sail in some pretty filthy water anyway, or at least it's not pristine. I'll suggest that the hose and nozzle isn't any more contaminated than the water that surrounds our boats anyway, so I don't really get the concern or focus on contamination of the pump out to this level. I always wash my hands immediately after handling the hose. I'm pretty sure that the 5 dollar bills that I pull out of my wallet and hand to the attendant are just about as contaminated at that point,
Interesting question.
My quick read of mouldering toilets suggests that the urine is not separated. That places them in a separate, (nasty?) catagory. keeping the urine (nitrogen and water) separate from the solids changes the mechanism dramatically.
Side note: One of the reasons clumping litter works so much better for cats is that the urine stays separate from the poop. They don't come out of the cat the same place and the clumping keeps them separate.
I have referred to many of them as desiccating heads, because when used by day sailors and weekend cruisers, that is really what they are. They work like an optimized litter box, and that is actually a very good answer for many. I didn't call them this to detract, only to describe how they work in that application.
The longer it sits, the more "composting" becomes an appropriate name. I think it best to see it as a continuum, with the common thread that the urine is separated and the medium is chosen for its drying properties.
I'm thinking of replacing my toilet with a big litter box. Then, I'll just provide guests with a little scoop so they can clean up after themselves. Problem solved.
Mouldering means that the conditions for complete composting are not usually met. There are composting toilets where the urine is not separated - the Clivus Multrum comes to mind. I did a quick google search and there now seems to be a company that uses that name and produces a commercial product that I am not familiar with. In the 1970's I worked with a contractor that had a construction contract with some state parks to build Clivus Multrum based systems in the parks. As far as I'm aware, they are still there today but I haven't personally seen them in a couple decades so can't swear to that.
We also installed some commercial units in building of a different design, but I don't recall their name. Those were units that both liquid and solid mixed so no separation. They contained a heater that maintained the holding tank at a specific temperature. We used to jokingly call them big yogurt makers. We used to work under some federal regs but I don't recall their references.
The units sold today for boats, campers, and the like, called composting heads are technically mouldering heads, as I've said. For these small units you would need a heater that maintained a specific temperature, have sufficient holding capacity, to allow the solids to fully compost, at least most of the time. Since there is no heater, and the units are typically emptied too soon for complete compost to form, but the initial stages of composting often do occur, it places them in the "mouldering" head category. i can image that term would not lend itself to good commercialization. I don't remember if a "composting" designation requires the urine and solids to both compost.
l just did a search for the reference material that you may like but haven't found it yet. Oh well.... I'll try again when I have more time to look...
dj
@thinwater - you must have had some tiger for breakfast. The relevance was not aimed at boating, but rather the definition of different classes of these types of heads.
dj
Sorry. It's easy to come across as overbearing on a forum when that is not the intent.
I was actually interested in the nomenclature, since it lacks formally established terms. Separating toilets is another common term, but only when conversation is already centered on composting or desiccating, non-flushed types. Some readers (most readers that have not studied composting/desiccating heads for boats) don't understand the importance of separating liquids and that they are functionally very different.
Last edited:
@thinwater No worries...
So I thought I could put my hands on the references I've referred to but alas, after several hours of looking, I can't find them.
Several years ago I was going through the process of deciding if I wanted to go to composting (whatever you want to call them) heads on my sailboat. I would watch all the threads in the sailing forums on the subject. This was back when anyone posting something about composting heads on boats would illicit numerous posts from the "haters" citing all sorts of reasons they shouldn't be used. Really, the choice is more one of personal preference and how many people are going to be using it.
In one particular thread, on Cruisers and Sailing, one poster dropped in a post about how they were the type of person that would always look at all links people would post and research things in depth - then posted some links to really excellent information on composting etc. type heads. I read through each link as I was also in the same state of wanting to make sure of all details. In one of those links it specifically addressed these types of heads used often on campers and boats and called them mouldering heads. It then went on to explain why.
I've just spent way too much time looking and can't find that original post. I subsequently copied that post over in Sailing Anarchy (pretty sure anyway), but I can't find my post there either....
In all of that information, there was one point that never was made clear to me, and that was with the disposal of the urine. Everyone seemed concerned with the health issues regarding the solids disposal, but other than saying you shouldn't dump urine overboard - mainly due to regulations - I had found nowhere that gave detailed information on potential health issues from the urine side. So I spoke to my nearest Master Gardener asking about the concerns of using urine for plants/gardens and any health issues that may exist. They looked at me like I had three heads. Then proceded to explain to me how one uses urine for fertilizer, giving me guidance into how often to apply, to what kind of plants and given application frequency, the dilution ratio that would be preferred for different plant types. No concerns on health related issues at all. That pretty much sealed the deal for me. I went to these types of heads.
So I'll still bring up that these are actually mouldering heads whenever I feel like it, but for now - not much more I can give you.
dj
Just yesterday I had my pumpout done in the channel! We were heading out to go sailing as the pumpout boat was heading in towards the marinas. I couldn't follow him into the first marina he was going to because of draft. He just tied up to me and held me from drifting outside the channel while I did my business! That's service!
Alan was heading home to the slip and gave me a hard time as they passed by ... it turns out he wandered just outside the channel just beyond where we passed and got stuck so bad he needed to be towed off! I got to needle him in return!
I can't speak to the implications for composting/mouldering head. But, in healthy individuals, urine is quite clean. Contrary to popular myth, it is not sterile. It can contain bacteria, but they are not pathogenic. That is, they are not considered harmful. It is, of course, mainly water and the main non-water components are things like sodium, potassium, etc. that are not hazardous in the small quantities involved in recreational settings. I don't know if any bacteria in urine are detrimental to composting or require any particular consideration. My assumption is that the only issue is that, as urine sits, bacteria break down urea and produce ammonia.
So, there is no harm in just peeing directly in the water. But ... emptying a head overboard, even when just used for urine, that introduces some complications that could introduce harmful pathogens to the ecosystem. Don't need to go into that, because I don't think anyone here is suggesting that.