Pumpout Carts Suck

[Foswick]

I actually JUST got an email back from a sales rep for a company in Norway that sells hose mostly for the aerospace industry (as far as I can tell). They have a 3" silicone-coated aramid fiber hose that weighs in at 680 grams per meter (less than half the weight of typical PVC pumpout hose) and is rated for 25 inHg which, as I understand, is within the requirements since many pumps actually only go to 18 inHg, though better peristaltic pumps do promise vacuum closer to the 29 to 29.5 range.

(For anyone who cares and doesn't know, "standard" pressure at sea level is 29.92 inHg. These pumps are rated as to how much of that pressure they can "remove". So, a perfect vacuum would be 29.92 inHg. In practice, this can't be achieved, so there is really no such thing as a "full vacuum" pumpout station. But, the better ones are close enough, with pumps that promise getting to 29.5 inHg under ideal conditions. When they describe a pump as rated to 29.5 inHg, they really mean the relative measurement of -29.5 inHg ... or 29.5 inHg lower than the ambient pressure under standard conditions.)

This hose has a minimum bend radius of 2.5", meaning the hose would make a 180 degree bend in 11". That's pretty flexible. I don't know, but would estimate that the hose I am used to seeing has a minimum bend radius of about twice that.

The rep pointed out that, likely, the only reason this would not be suitable for a pumpout station is because the hose is not coated for UV protection. But, UV protection is pretty easy, so surely a similar hose with UV protection either exists or could exist. I just started looking. So, the fact that this one company (the first to respond to me) has something so close to what I am looking for ... that's encouraging. They want about $50/ft, which doesn't seem cost-prohibitive.

 

[dlochner]

Good luck with your quest.

Edson sells a 25' pumpout hose and fittings for $479, less than the cost of 10' of the hose you found. Marinas are going to be hard pressed to pay $50 a foot for something that costs less than half of that and includes all the fittings.

25' Pumpout Hose Assembly (261-25-150)

The Edson Pumpout Hose (length 25 Ft, 1.5" ID x 2-inch OD, EPDM tube with Polyethylene helix) comes complete with all fittings and adapters including 90 degree ball valve and sight glass.

edsonmarine.com

 

[Foswick]

Marinas are going to be hard pressed to pay $50 a foot for something that costs less than half of that and includes all the fittings.

Oh, I am under no delusion that marinas will pay for a better hose. My hope is that I acn convince a manufacturer or two to change what they use because it is a better product. The cost I have seen is the retail cost and is marketed to the aerospace industry with certifications that, I suppose, are relevant to that application. It means that the basic hose construction likely costs only a few bucks per foot. I expect that a better hose would only bump the retail cost of the entire station about $50-$100.

We'll see. More than anything, I'm just curious. Whenever anyone says there isn't a better way to do something, I am driven to find it.

 

[thinwater]

Oh, I am under no delusion that marinas will pay for a better hose. My hope is that I acn convince a manufacturer or two to change what they use because it is a better product. The cost I have seen is the retail cost and is marketed to the aerospace industry with certifications that, I suppose, are relevant to that application. It means that the basic hose construction likely costs only a few bucks per foot. I expect that a better hose would only bump the retail cost of the entire station about $50-$100.

We'll see. More than anything, I'm just curious. Whenever anyone says there isn't a better way to do something, I am driven to find it.

"Better," when it comes to pumping poo, is not high end. The "best" answer for many things is the best value, and the products you see are well established. And no, a thin coating won't protect it from UV. By the time the hose is built to the full vacuum, marina-ruggedness, and UV resistant spec, it will be just as heavy and may weigh more. And you didn't discuss odor permeation or give us polymer specs. No magic.

Possibly. I've speced a lot of hose over the years, of all types, for all manner of chemicals. Some was more expensive than the aerospace hose, so that does not impress me. I can also assure you that the manufacture is paying far less than half the Edison price. This is s__t hose, and what you see is the correct product for the use at a practical value. However, you are going provide both the marina and the manufacturers with a good laugh.

 

[Foswick]

This is s__t hose, and what you see is the correct product for the use at a practical value. However, you are going provide both the marina and the manufacturers with a good laugh.

Man, you really just like to argue.

But yes, you are right. We should all learn to accept things as they are. There cannot possibly be a better solution, because you said so. I should have just asked you first before I started reaching out to folks in the industry.

In the past, couple of days, I have heard back from 4 suppliers who have products that are made exactly for this purpose in other industries, all with better handling characteristics (lighter and more flexible) than the typical PVC hose you find today. And, I heard back from one manufacturer of marine pumpout equipment who said they are very keen to find a better solution, because the current hose is one of the top three complaints, only after smell and nozzle seals.

If I had checked with you first, I could have known that these people were all wrong or lying and saved myself the trouble.

I'm not sure why you are hostile to the idea of improving something. Is it just because you took the position that the current solution is the best possible solution, and you just like to argue? Whatever. Fill your boots.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue working on it a bit. I'm more interested in real-world solutions than being "right" in some online discussion that doesn't matter.

 

[thinwater]

Man, you really just like to argue.

But yes, you are right. We should all learn to accept things as they are. There cannot possibly be a better solution, because you said so. I should have just asked you first before I started reaching out to folks in the industry.

In the past, couple of days, I have heard back from 4 suppliers who have products that are made exactly for this purpose in other industries, all with better handling characteristics (lighter and more flexible) than the typical PVC hose you find today. And, I heard back from one manufacturer of marine pumpout equipment who said they are very keen to find a better solution, because the current hose is one of the top three complaints, only after smell and nozzle seals.

If I had checked with you first, I could have known that these people were all wrong or lying and saved myself the trouble.

I'm not sure why you are hostile to the idea of improving something. Is it just because you took the position that the current solution is the best possible solution, and you just like to argue? Whatever. Fill your boots.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue working on it a bit. I'm more interested in real-world solutions than being "right" in some online discussion that doesn't matter.

I apologize. Arrogance based on having worked with suction hoses in various applications at least hundreds of times more. We changed hose types when something better came along. But let me point out something obvious.

The industry has been servicing portable toilets with vacuum trucks for at least 75 years. There have been advances in hose technology. I assure you, this has been investigated at length by people with a LOT more labor and interest in the game than the entire marine industry. We are tiny by comparison. A pimple. There are lighter hoses, but they are less durable or stupidly expensive.

I wish you success. If you find something better, the marine industry will not be your big customer, pumpers will be.

Really, nozzle seals are the bigger problem. A tiny air leak destroys vacuum and flow rates. Easy to solve too, but boaters don't like the answer (an installed camlock).

You might ask here: Dedicated to the Liquid Waste Industry | Pumper

 

[thinwater]

I find the existing hoses easy to handle, but there may be some technique that is not obvious. Suction hoses do not twist, meaning they are torsionally rigid. This is an artifact of vacuum rating, and no design change will change this.

When coiling and uncoiling you must reverse a coil every other time or you will be fighting kinks. This becomes reflex with practice. Figure 8 coils work with rope and wire, but large hoses require a different method.

 

[dlochner]

Really, nozzle seals are the bigger problem. A tiny air leak destroys vacuum and flow rates. Easy to solve too, but boaters don't like the answer (an installed camlock).

Absolutely the worst invention in the pumpout industry. Edson should know better. Yes, using the nozzle saves a minute or two over using a cam lock and cam lock fittings can't swim, still they were better than the nozzles especially after the nozzles have worn a bit and leak.

Forget the hose, build a better nozzle.

 

[thinwater]

Absolutely the worst invention in the pumpout industry. Edson should know better. Yes, using the nozzle saves a minute or two over using a cam lock and cam lock fittings can't swim, still they were better than the nozzles especially after the nozzles have worn a bit and leak.

Forget the hose, build a better nozzle.

Should we blame Edison? Or the boat builders that have not provided a proper fitting at their end? Edison is just trying to match up to what they are faced with.

On my PDQ you were free to screw in a 1.5-inch male camlock (all of the deck fittings I have seen are internally threaded for 1.5-inch NPT pipe), and the Maryland pump outs have a 1.5-inch female camlock just behind the nozzle; just screw in a male camlock, pop the nozzle off the pump-out hose, and you have a perfect vacuum and pressure tight seal. Camlocks are the industry standard for pumping waste and many industrial chemicals because they are durable, reliable, don't clog or easily get buggered up, and universal. But the camlock is not flush with the deck, so you would typically screw it out and replace it with a deck plate, for looks and to avoid tripping. Camlocks are what you will see on most commercial pump-outs, such as ferries etc.

One solution would be to mold a recess into the deck to allow a flush male on the boat side. Or better, just place it out of the way and let the male stick up--I would have fine with that on my last boat, since the fitting was in a corner. It would have worked better. But appearance rules the market over function. What you do not want is a fussy fitting that will get clogged up with poop.

You can get pretty much any combination of threads and size, and you can get them in most plastics. Cheap as chips and industry standard. For example, you can screw type F into your existing pump-out fitting and and seal it with type DC. I did that for a while.

 

[dlochner]

McMaster has polypropylene cam lock fittings for under $5 for eighteen 1 ¼ " or 1 ½" threads. It is what I used when I built my 12v portable pumpout. The female cam lock sockets are around $12. Pretty cheap. The cam lock plugs have a hole to attach a floatation device, aka an empty soda bottle.

 

[Ward H]

Now you guys have got me excited about pumping poo!
I pump out maybe 3 times a year, just finishing our 7 season with our C30. (previous boat had a port a potty type head)
Twice now I've been sprayed due to a poor vacuum seal which is 2 times too many.
If I can buy a cam lock fitting and install it for those 3 times a year I need it, I go out tomorrow and buy one.
I'll check with the pump out boat next week and if they can switch to a cam lock fitting at my request, I'll be doing that. I may even call and ask, then check my boat Pumpout fitting to see if it has internal threads. If all is good I'll be switching to the cam lock fittings.
Thanks

 

[thinwater]

Now you guys have got me excited about pumping poo!
I pump out maybe 3 times a year, just finishing our 7 season with our C30. (previous boat had a port a potty type head)
Twice now I've been sprayed due to a poor vacuum seal which is 2 times too many.
If I can buy a cam lock fitting and install it for those 3 times a year I need it, I go out tomorrow and buy one.
I'll check with the pump out boat next week and if they can switch to a cam lock fitting at my request, I'll be doing that. I may even call and ask, then check my boat Pumpout fitting to see if it has internal threads. If all is good I'll be switching to the cam lock fittings.
Thanks

That is why the fittings have internal threads. My PDQ actually came with a camlock from the factory.

To avoid getting sprayed, remove the hose slowly, and cover the gap with a towel. In refineries (wearing very heavy gloves) you learn to place one hand over the gap on your side to deflect any leaks into a waiting bucket, or at least, away from your face. I always wear gauntlet gloves for pump-out.

 

[dLj]

This whole thread is only one of many reasons I got rid of my traditional marine heads and went to a mouldering (a.k.a composting/desiccating) heads...

dj

 

[Scott T-Bird]

If I can buy a cam lock fitting and install it for those 3 times a year I need it, I go out tomorrow and buy one.
I'll check with the pump out boat next week and if they can switch to a cam lock fitting at my request, I'll be doing that. I may even call and ask, then check my boat Pumpout fitting to see if it has internal threads. If all is good I'll be switching to the cam lock fittings.
Thanks

I assume that you would use the internal threads that are provided to fit the cap ... no? I've had no problem with our pump out service. Your deck fitting may be a little too tight to the lip on the rail, I suppose. I'm pretty aware of the seal and really lean on the handle to make sure there is no break in the seal. I haven't noted any defects in the hose fitting that the pump out boat provides. I think the biggest problem with the boat deck fittings is that they should be placed on an unobstructed, flat surface. On our Catalina's I think the fitting is too close to that lip along the rail. The hose fitting has a wide enough rubber seal that spreads out and seals effectively, but it can't when there are obstructions built into the boat right next to the deck fitting. That's the boat builder's poor design and not the fault of the hose fitting.

I also believe that I have seen that the pump out boat can provide a cam fitting. I think they are equipped pretty well for just about anything - I think they can just change out the hose fitting as necessary. In our area, the county provides free pump out boat service and you can simply call them on the radio to request a pump out, even out at anchorage on the bay. They regularly swing thru all the marinas and even thru the popular anchorages. Also, the fuel stations have convenient access. We do have a problem with access at some fuel stations because many are too shallow for deeper keels to get close to the dock. But there is no excuse in our area for not pumping out as frequently and conveniently as possible. In fact all dock and boat locations that I have seen are free service. We just pay tips.

When pump out is as easy and convenient as the service we are used to, I would never consider an on-board desiccating system that still requires maintenance and disposal regardless. I agree that there is nothing objectionable about the hose that is used. Sure, it's a little stiff and heavy, but what the hell do you want? The hose has never been a problem as far as I can tell.

 

[Ward H]

I've had no problem with our pump out service. Your deck fitting may be a little too tight to the lip on the rail, I suppose. I'm pretty aware of the seal and really lean on the handle to make sure there is no break in the seal. I haven't noted any defects in the hose fitting that the pump out boat provides. I think the biggest problem with the boat deck fittings is that they should be placed on an unobstructed, flat surface. On our Catalina's I think the fitting is too close to that lip along the rail. The hose fitting has a wide enough rubber seal that spreads out and seals effectively, but it can't when there are obstructions built into the boat right next to the deck fitting. That's the boat builder's poor design and not the fault of the hose fitting.

I agree it's more the narrow deck, position of the deck fill and user error than the pump out boat's equipment.
Rather than practice getting it right I'll go with the surest setup. It's either that or a Tyveck suit, face shield and gauntlet gloves. Actually I've never observed what other boaters do when pumping out. The face shield and gauntlet gloves sound like they should be standard.

 

[Foswick]

I have no idea how many times I have pumped out. About a dozen times per year for ... a lot of years. I have never had a problem with the nozzle. Not once. I might be lucky or I might be doing something special that I am not aware of.

In this state (Washington) many marinas will give you a free pumpout adapter, or Washington Sea Grant boater outreach will send you one, if you ask. I have never bothered, because I've never had a problem, so I don't know anything about the efficacy of those adapters, though I understand their purpose.

I am a former EMT and I worked for some years in the ER. So, I am very conscientious about handling bio-contaminated items. Since I don't gown up and don a face shield when I pump out, I prefer to handle things as little as possible. If the hose brushes my leg, for example, those pants are going in a plastic bag and treated as a bio-hazard. A small boat is a terrible place to bring bio-contamination.

So, the idea of the additional handling of an adapter just doesn't appeal. If I was ever sprayed, my attitude would almost certainly be different. Then, you have this contaminated adapter to disinfect and store. I know many people just store it in a plastic bag but that is nasty. I disinfect the deck key and anything it touched before it ever leaves the deck - that's how careful I am. So, you can see why the idea of an adapter grosses me out. I don't mean to disparage their use - I get it.

 

[jssailem]

Raising the bar on PPE to handle the dreaded pump-out.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I guess the point of the thread was a complaint specifically about pump out carts. I've never used one and I've never even seen one. We seem to have either pump-out boats for portable service or permanent facilities usually at convenient dock facilities. I guess that would be the solution. I agree, having to manually haul out a cart myself would be a source of complaint on my end. The usual facilities that I experience simply are not a bother. Taking the boat 3-miles out is also an option.

 

[thinwater]

This whole thread is only one of many reasons I got rid of my traditional marine heads and went to a mouldering (a.k.a composting/desiccating) heads...

dj

Mouldering? Love it. A new name for the catagory? Maybe not.

 

[thinwater]

I assume that you would use the internal threads that are provided to fit the cap ... no?

Yes. But not coincidental that they are pipe thread. Most caps are not.