Pumpout Carts Suck

[Foswick]

(Excuse the bad pun.)

Washington State Parks just sent out a survey to gather information about how pumpout stations are used and what could be done to improve them. It got me thinking.

First, I will say that we always pumpout at a facility. We have never dumped overboard. Around here, there is really no excuse. But, I will say that I have found the situation to be lacking in a couple of ways. First, if there is one at all, the pumpout dock often gets tucked away somewhere that is less than convenient to get into and out of. But, many locations do not have a fixed station at a dock and, instead, offer mobile pumpout carts.

Great, except I have never found a cart that didn't take an unpleasant job and make it worse. My complaint is the big, heavy, and stiff hose and the way it is coiled onto the cart. I get that these need to be rugged and not leak. So, they are over-engineered. And, there might not really be a better way to do it. But ... I don't know ... maybe someone out there lives in a little pocket of paradise where they have quietly solved this problem and forgot to tell us.

The beasts I am talking about are things that look like this: Portable PumpOut | Sewage PumpOut System | Marine PumpOut The hose is stiff and weighs a ton, even if you manage to get most of the liquid out of it, and it is nearly impossible to handle without it touching something you didn't want it to touch. Gloves are not quite enough PPE to do the job easily.

Does anyone live somewhere with a better solution?

 

[dlochner]

The only solution to the pump out other than dumping directly overboard is a desiccating head (aka composting head) and those present their own problems.

Having pumped hundreds of times, I can say practice improves the process and accidents are less likely to happen. The worst pump out "improvement" has been Edson's universal nozzle, this the the rubber nozzle that is jammed down in the connection and must be held in place. The old school method with a male clamp on fitting screwed in to the deck connection and a female clamp on fitting on the hose are much easier and less messy.

Never fun but necessary.

 

[dLj]

The only solution to the pump out other than dumping directly overboard is a desiccating head (aka composting head) and those present their own problems.

Just to be accurate - they are technically mouldering heads. I would have to look up the reference if you need but I don't have it on hand at the moment.

Many call them composting heads, not quite right, many call them desiccating heads, also not quite right. They are part way between those two extremes. They are classified as moldering heads. A moulding head is one where compost is not usually achieved due to the slow nature of the decomposition.

A dedicating head would be one that only dries - but that is not correct as there is some decomposition in the solids section.

A composting head is one where typically both solids and liquids are decomposed into compost. I believe it is not a requirement for the liquids to also compost to get a composting head designation, but it's been some time since I read up on this and I'd have to look that detail up.

dj

 

[Foswick]

Yeah, I know about different onboard approaches to waste management. I was wondering specifically if there were better pumpout carts somewhere on the planet.

This comes about because the survey was trying to get at ways to improve pumpout compliance. And, after giving it some thought, I figured that probably the #1 reason a person wouldn't pumpout is because dragging out a pumpout cart and wrestling with the hose is a nasty inconvenience. I think fewer people would discharge overboard if that machine wasn't such a beast to use.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

I'd like to see a vacuum gauge on the pump out station. My marina doesnt believe me when I tell them that the pump isnt working as well as it should. If it sucks up lake water, it's good enough for them.

I believe we have the Edson nozzles that @dlochner mentioned. They work ok. There's enough suction to keep them in place. In four years there's been maybe three times when a small amount of liquid made it on deck. We have SaniSailor pumps at our marina

 

[dlochner]

My marina doesnt believe me when I tell them that the pump isnt working as well as it should. If it sucks up lake water, it's good enough for them.

A common complaint. One of the causes is leaving the excess hose on the cart or on the pumpout pedestal. It can airlock the pump and it won't work. The hose needs to be flat on the dock.

 

[shemandr]

On the East End of LI town operated pump out boats are available and make the task quite easy. You can argue if that is a fair or good use of public money but I believe it increased compliance. I would always try to hail the pump out boat near the end of a weekend. If a cruise ended on a weekday it was hit or miss. The staffing of the boat was typically teenagers and they could sometimes be found lounging. And believe it or not there were jurisdictional issues between the various towns. I guess the tip money was enough to be worth protecting their turf.
Our boatyard had a pump out cart. I was told that some government program paid for it and the yard wasn't supposed to charge for pump outs but they did anyway. I only recall one boater using it and I think that was after hours. Other than that the yard workers did it and I think it was $60. That was in the 1990's.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

A common complaint. One of the causes is leaving the excess hose on the cart or on the pumpout pedestal. It can airlock the pump and it won't work. The hose needs to be flat on the dock.

THanks for the tip!

 

[dmax]

South coast of Massachusetts: I have a pumpout dock a few hundred yards from my boat, the staff deals with the hose, you just run the gun. Most harbors have pumpout boats, you call them and they pump it out - really easy around here.

 

[jssailem]

Two pumpouts are provided in the Port of Everett. One is located at the fuel dock, and the other is at the southeast end of the marina near the new sky bridge walkway over the train tracks.

Additionally, there is a pumpout boat service for live-a-boards.

This year, the port improved the hose system used on the pumpouts. It is more user-friendly.

 

[Foswick]

When I was last there (in Everett), the pumpout boat would do any boat. I think that he normally just comes around once a week, and I happened to catch him when he was already there. Nice guy.

I just found out Clean Vessel Act grant money pays for free mobile pumpout service at several marinas in the area: https://pumpoutwashington.org/mobile-pumpouts. Four of those are within my regular stomping ground. So, that's pretty sweet.

I will say that, with the going rate at $25 (at least for our tank), it is always worth it to have someone come over and do it (for me at least). I tend to tip about $20 if the person is friendly and helpful, and it is still a bargain, in my view. I spent the night at Flounder Bay several years ago and needed a pumpout. I came out with my gloves all ready to do it, and a very friendly high school kid was already there. Pumpout was not only full serve, but it was free. Kid was saving up for college so I probably tipped him $50, but worth every penny.

I kind of think every fuel dock should have a pumpout. I think that many don't because it would create some congestion during busy times. But, I would pumpout every time I fueled up.

 

[jssailem]

I should add that Everett is in the process of rebuilding their Fuel Dock. Already there have been messages about closure. I have no idea when the project will begin. It's likely a winter project.

 

[danm1]

Many harbors on LI Sound have free pumpout boats. Unfortunately, many only operate on weekends. Got stuck in Oyster Bay on a Tuesday and was initially happy to hear they had a new solar powered pumpoat barge available 24/7. Turns out the gulls loved it too. I think I waded through as much s--t on the barge as I pumped (although it did have great suction).

 

[jssailem]

I think I waded through as much s--t on the barge as I pumped (although it did have great suction).

Where is the barge pumping the effluent if you have to wade through it?

 

[kappykaplan]

Where is the barge pumping the effluent if you have to wade through it?

That would be the bird stuff he waded through on top of the barge . . .

 

[seanshine]

+1

 

[thinwater]

(Excuse the bad pun.)

Washington State Parks just sent out a survey to gather information about how pumpout stations are used and what could be done to improve them. It got me thinking.

First, I will say that we always pumpout at a facility. We have never dumped overboard. Around here, there is really no excuse. But, I will say that I have found the situation to be lacking in a couple of ways. First, if there is one at all, the pumpout dock often gets tucked away somewhere that is less than convenient to get into and out of. But, many locations do not have a fixed station at a dock and, instead, offer mobile pumpout carts.

Great, except I have never found a cart that didn't take an unpleasant job and make it worse. My complaint is the big, heavy, and stiff hose and the way it is coiled onto the cart. I get that these need to be rugged and not leak. So, they are over-engineered. And, there might not really be a better way to do it. But ... I don't know ... maybe someone out there lives in a little pocket of paradise where they have quietly solved this problem and forgot to tell us.

The beasts I am talking about are things that look like this: Portable PumpOut | Sewage PumpOut System | Marine PumpOut The hose is stiff and weighs a ton, even if you manage to get most of the liquid out of it, and it is nearly impossible to handle without it touching something you didn't want it to touch. Gloves are not quite enough PPE to do the job easily.

Does anyone live somewhere with a better solution?

a. The hose is large because ... guess what it is pumping.
b. It is stiff because it must withstand handling and stepping on without crushing or kinking. It operations under full vacuum. It is as light as it can be.
c. You MUST put all of the turns on the dock. The reason is that when there is some air in the hose, each loop is a suction lift. You may have accumulated 15 feet of lift before the hose even heads to the tank. Remember, full vacuum is about 30 feet of waste, but the pump can probably only pull a little more than 20 feet (design practicalities and wear), and there is also the matter of friction and lumps.
d. Any air leaks around the fitting greatly reduce lift. Press hard, and sealing with a wet washcloth can help.

Lay the hose flat and read all of the instructions. I've seen a lot of errors.

 

[Foswick]

a. The hose is large because ... guess what it is pumping.
b. It is stiff because it must withstand handling and stepping on without crushing or kinking. It operations under full vacuum. It is as light as it can be.

I get WHY it is like it is, and I don't really have a problem with its effectiveness. Gets the job done even if unpleasant to handle. But, I don't believe that it is as light as it can be, nor as flexible. I was in Israel, some years ago, and a crew was pumping water out of a reservoir using a hose that was maybe 5-6" diameter. The end had a handle on it so that a crew member could move it around. With one hand, he was nimbly moving the hose around like it weighed nothing, at times flicking it with his arm like you would a rope or garden hose to move it over snags. I noticed it because they had set a piece of wood over the hose like a seesaw so that other crew members could get over it with a wheelbarrow. So, it has reasonably stiff and rugged.

I didn't feel the hose myself, but it was apparent that it was easily half the weight of a pumpout hose and twice as flexible.

So, I don't believe it is the way it is because it can't be better. I would believe (but doubt) that the economics of using a better hose might be cost prohibitive or at least more challenging. And, the fact that pumpouts pump human sewage and, as near as I could tell in Israel, they were just pumping muddy water that had been contaminated with what looked like a petroleum-based chemical (it left a sheen on the water). That requirement might complicate the design of the hose, since the smell of human waste has a way of permeating lots of materials ... as most of us know too well. But, even then, I bet there is a way.

(I've been trying to figure out what kind of hose I saw in Israel, because I want to contact the manufacturer and put them in touch with the people who make pumpouts. No luck so far. But, if one company is doing it, I'm betting that there are at least a few better options.)

 

[dlochner]

Was the worker moving the hose on the suction side or the output side? Makes a big difference in his construction.

 

[thinwater]

I get WHY it is like it is, and I don't really have a problem with its effectiveness. Gets the job done even if unpleasant to handle. But, I don't believe that it is as light as it can be, nor as flexible. I was in Israel, some years ago, and a crew was pumping water out of a reservoir using a hose that was maybe 5-6" diameter. The end had a handle on it so that a crew member could move it around. With one hand, he was nimbly moving the hose around like it weighed nothing, at times flicking it with his arm like you would a rope or garden hose to move it over snags. I noticed it because they had set a piece of wood over the hose like a seesaw so that other crew members could get over it with a wheelbarrow. So, it has reasonably stiff and rugged.

I didn't feel the hose myself, but it was apparent that it was easily half the weight of a pumpout hose and twice as flexible.

So, I don't believe it is the way it is because it can't be better. I would believe (but doubt) that the economics of using a better hose might be cost prohibitive or at least more challenging. And, the fact that pumpouts pump human sewage and, as near as I could tell in Israel, they were just pumping muddy water that had been contaminated with what looked like a petroleum-based chemical (it left a sheen on the water). That requirement might complicate the design of the hose, since the smell of human waste has a way of permeating lots of materials ... as most of us know too well. But, even then, I bet there is a way.

(I've been trying to figure out what kind of hose I saw in Israel, because I want to contact the manufacturer and put them in touch with the people who make pumpouts. No luck so far. But, if one company is doing it, I'm betting that there are at least a few better options.)

There are several things you may have mixed up. The hose in the image was a very light type and would not be considered "heavy duty."
a. The large hose may not have been full suction rated. We typically used a different type for that work, and it will crush if it sees full vacuum.
b. They were not "flicking it around" when it was full. Most of the weight is the water, and 6" hose is a bear, no matter how light the hose.
c. Those guys were probably stronger than they looked, and experienced. There is method to everything.

The other consideration is that the lightest hoses are subject to damamge by misuse. And it is not economics; the lighter hoses are nearly always cheaper.

This is common in Maryland. Looks the same. Very easy to use, by my measure, but some people feel differently. I don't understand what they expect. Commonly they are the same folks that think laying it on the ground is too difficult and then wonder why it does not work.

In MD the pump outs are many places, but they are not carts and they are mostly not at the fuel dock (congestion). A cart is bound to be a heavy beast

I started my career in refineries, so I guess I'm used to suction hoses of all sorts. Too light never lasted.