Considering Teak Cockpit Makeover

[Foswick]

Ugh ... I think I have just about resigned to a complete cockpit makeover. When I bought this boat (about six weeks ago), I knew I had some teak repair to do in the cockpit. There are a few split pieces and the overall look is shabby. I figured I would replace the bad pieces and recaulk and sand everything, and I would be basically happy with the results.

Last week, I removed the floor grating, repaired, cleaned, etc. and they look great/grate. (The picture shows the "before" state.) And, I've started to renovate the toe rail with really nice results. So, this makes me start to be a bit pickier about the state of the cockpit seating and locker lids.

So, I removed the aft-most portside locker lid and brought it home to get a sense of what I was getting into. It is pretty typical of the state and construction of the other locker lids. About half of the teak decking strips you see in the photo are attached to plywood to form a locker lid. The other half is screwed directly down to fiberglass.

I disassembled that small lid (in the photos above), and found all wood to be in questionable condition. I initially thought that I would just replace the substrate plywood and rebuild the lid using the existing teak. But, that is looking less feasible. I am concerned that, although I might be able to do that in some places, I wouldn't be able to do it consistently throughout the cockpit, resulting in an inconsistent patchwork.

So, I am considering the idea that it might be easier to completely rebuild from scratch using new wood - maybe just keeping the most viable pieces of the original cockpit. I do want to keep the appearance of teak, to be consistent with the style and vintage of the boat.

But ... I am actually considering synthetic teak, such as PlasDeck. It kind of goes against my grain (so to speak), but I have a couple of reasons for this. First, like I said, I think anything other than a wood look would be out of place on the boat. But, I also don't mind having a cockpit that is not screwed down, creating a bunch of holes in my boat. And, I don't mind not having to take care of all of that teak. Finally, I always sail with my dog and, eventually, his claws will take some toll on the teak surfaces.

I ordered a sample of PlasDeck to see if I like it or not. I don't know if I have ever seen synthetic teak actually on a boat, before. So, I'm not sure about how it looks. I have seen EVA foam decking that is meant to look like teak, and I don't care for the almost cartoony look of it. Though, even with that said, I do understand the appeal and haven't entirely ruled it out as a practical option.

I guess I don't really have a question, here. I'm just looking for someone to talk me into or out of any particular option.

I should mention that I am pretty handy, but I don't have a lot of patience to take my time to get it right. This is one factor leading me away from trying to salvage the existing materials.

 

[shemandr]

The part that is screwed down to the fiberglass: If that's cored fiberglass can you be sure the core isn't wet?
I think synthetic could be an option. In July 2024 issue of Soundings magazine there is an article in the Boatworks section regarding modern synthetic decking materials. There are more options than ever. The article highlights Aquatraction but also mentions Seadeck. I'm sure there are others.
Either a full redo of the teak or synthetics will cost. I would have a look at the synthetics.

 

[Foswick]

If that's cored fiberglass can you be sure the core isn't wet?

It isn't cored. I can see the underside well from inside the engine compartment - just screws through fiberglass.

There is a mystery that I'm keen to solve, though. If you look at the picture of the cockpit - on the forward edge of the cockpit, there is a bulkhead with a small round port. Inside, on the bottom edge of that bulkhead, there is something like teek veneer plywood with old water damage along the bottom edge - right about at the level of the teak decking in the cockpit. (The source of the water was rectified some time ago, but the damage is done.)

My assumption has been that the decking had some water incursion that seeped into the core material and wicked over to the interior of the bulkhead. But, looking underneath, there does not seem to be a seam in the fiberglass between that bulkhead and the top of the cockpit seating. It appears to be either a single molded piece or the seam was well taped. But, I can't get an unobstructed view from below, so I'm not sure exactly what it actually looks like.

As with most boat projects, this will be a can of worms. When I get the decking off, I will find out how water made its way into that bulkhead interior. Which means I will need to address that. And, having addressed that, I should just replace that interior surface. And so on ...

What really has me stumped about that water damage is that it definitely was resolved, somehow. Water is (almost) definitely not leeching in there anymore. Since the cockpit appears to be original material, I have to assume that someone just rebedded and/or recaulked some of the cockpit, and that stopped the water.

If that turns out to be the case, I am going to fiberglass over the area before putting the new decking down. I don't want to cover a permeable seam with teak. Water WILL eventually find its way back into that seam.

 

[Foswick]

By the way, I just came in from the shop where I tried to clean up the pieces of that small locker lid. That pretty well seals my fate - that I won't be reusing the existing material. I think that I would be lucky to salvage about half of the existing wood, and even then, I would have to repair a bunch of dings around screw holes and such. It would never look great.

Now, I just need to decide whether to go teak, synthetic teak, or some entirely different direction.

Cost is a consideration. Shopping around I think I can do something in the neighborhood of $100 USD per sq/ft for teak (not counting any plywood bases). I have roughly 30 sq/ft to do - I haven't measured exactly. So, that's about $3000. I always double and add $7 to boat estimates. So, $6007 for a new cockpit - seems reasonable. What drives up the cost is the fact that about half of my square footage will be bullnose trim. The 1/4" decking is actually only about $30 sq/ft.

(Why $7? I used to do a lot of estimates for software projects and had a knack for coming up $7 short of where I wanted to. So, now I just add $7 to all estimates. I double all boat project estimates because ... boats.)

Considering PlasDeck, we're looking at about $1000 in materials. So, I estimate that to be $2007. Big difference. Pretty tempting.

 

[Steve L22188]

I love the estimating formula!

The $7 is new to me...the doubling of the cost is not. Don't forget: take the number of estimated time units (hours/days/etc.) and square that number. That's the new estimated hours/days/weeks to complete the job. Then divide that number by two to get the number of trips to the hardware/big box/West Marine store. A four-hour job is really a two day job (16 hours)... with 8 trips to the store.

 

[garymalmgren]

Hi Foswick.
There is a third option that you haven't talked about.
Maintenance free fibreglass.
I understand the beauty of wood on a boat, but after all we are actually talking about somewhere to sit.

Take a walk around you dock a look carefully at some of the glass cockpits before you jump in.
My view on Plasdec and other faux teak is that it looks ok in small doses but the area that you have in your cockpit would be overbearing.
I could be wrong though.

gary

 

[Foswick]

A four-hour job is really a two day job (16 hours)... with 8 trips to the store.

Truth.

I had my son help me install a vent tube in the propane locker a couple of days ago. He asked how long it was going to take. I said, "About an hour ... no more than two." We both laughed.

What actually happened was we spent about an hour looking at the project and I ultimately decided not to do it at all. (That's a different story, but I made the decision that the risk of the current unvented locker was lower than the risk of any option we had for installing a vent in the space available. I'm going to build a new locker this winter.) So, the project will end up about 6 months longer than estimated and the original $50 estimate will balloon to a few hundred dollars. That's about par.

 

[ggrizzard]

20 years ago I used this product for a cockpit application. It's still there and
there are no signs of deterioration except a slight fading of the color.
No maintenance has been done other than cleaning with boat soap.
The material can be cut and sanded like wood, but I don't know how well it
reacts with glue, sealant or epoxy.
Here is the web site:

PlasTEAK Products - PlasTEAK Inc.

www.plasteak.com

 

[Foswick]

[...] after all we are actually talking about somewhere to sit.

I hear you. But, the surfaces are actually much less used for seating as they are for walking. They are the primary surface that my dog walks/sits/lays on, in the cockpit. And, it is the main walkway in, around, and through the cockpit. In fact, our feet almost never touch the actual cockpit floor except when sitting on the transom lockers at the helm.

My view on Plasdec and other faux teak is that it looks ok in small doses but the area that you have in your cockpit would be overbearing.

I tend to agree. That is one of the main reasons I have pretty much ruled out EVA. I think little patches of EVA at key locations looks good. But, when entire decks or cockpits are done with it, they are just too uniform. It looks OK, for what it is, but it isn't the look I'm going for.

Aside from the obvious (cost and longevity) there are a few considerations for me. First, there is the look of it. It has to look natural at first glance. It's OK with me if the illusion doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Second, my dog needs to be able to get some traction. Our previous boat had decent non-skid on fiberglass throughout the cockpit, but my dog just couldn't get secure when we were heeled over. Third, it is nice to have relatively dry seating. Finally, it needs to age well. I'm OK with the fact that it won't last forever, but it does matter what it looks like as it ages.

On these criteria ...

Natural look: Teak is the clear winner. Fiberglass, I guess, comes in second because it looks like what it is.

Traction: Again, teak wins. I think it is only bested by EVA foam. Fiberglass is the clear loser here. I have never found a non-skid surface on fiberglass that really works for me. I don't know about synthetics, yet.

Dryness: Ironically, the absorbent teak makes for dryer seating than we found in our fiberglass cockpit. This is just because water doesn't bead up on the surface. So, our teak gets damp but never has drops of water to sit in. Don't know about synthetics, yet.

Aging: That is one of my concerns with synthetics. I would be disappointed if the installation looked pretty good for a few years, then looked plasticy about 10 years before it was actually worn out enough to replace.

Still researching.

 

[dLj]

Some of the answer relies on you.

For me, I can see the faux synthetics from far away. If you are OK with that look, good - i wouldn't want that on my boat.

As far as longevity of teak, my current teak decks are 24 years old. I need to recaulk them, but the wood is still in very good condition. I'm sure they will go at least another 24 years when they may need recaulking again. The previous owner of my boat, who owned it for 20 years, had a dog on board. I do not see any signs of dog related damages. My teak decks are not screwed on, they are epoxied on, so no screw holes, no screws to work loose etc.

I do not treat my teak decks, nor did the previous owner. I will clean them, but they are grey, and I like grey. If you want the reddish color of finished teak, then perhaps a feux teak may be more appropriate. Finishing teak does wear them out faster seems to me, as you will need to sand and refinish from time to time.

dj

 

[Foswick]

For me, I can see the faux synthetics from far away. If you are OK with that look, good - i wouldn't want that on my boat.

I would have agreed with you before looking into current options. With many products, one of the only giveaways from the dock, in terms of appearance, is the fact that the synthetics appear suspiciously well taken care of. For example, check out: Real Teak Decking. As you get closer, another giveaway is the fact that the caulk lines are "too" clean. But, the telltale lack of natural color/texture variation is a problem that some better products have solved.

What I have noticed is that real teak decks are almost always allowed to go grey. So, when you see one that isn't grey, it stands out. I have mistaken real teak decks for synthetic, just based on the fact that they were golden brown and immaculately cared for. (I can't imagine putting in the work necessary to keep them like that, which is part of why most people let them go grey.)

 

[dLj]

I would have agreed with you before looking into current options. With many products, one of the only giveaways from the dock, in terms of appearance, is the fact that the synthetics appear suspiciously well taken care of. For example, check out: Real Teak Decking. As you get closer, another giveaway is the fact that the caulk lines are "too" clean. But, the telltale lack of natural color/texture variation is a problem that some better products have solved.

What I have noticed is that real teak decks are almost always allowed to go grey. So, when you see one that isn't grey, it stands out. I have mistaken real teak decks for synthetic, just based on the fact that they were golden brown and immaculately cared for. (I can't imagine putting in the work necessary to keep them like that, which is part of why most people let them go grey.)

I'm familiar with Real Teak Decking - rather a misnomer but hey, that is one of the better attempts at making a synthetic look like teak. I wish I couldn't see the difference so much. Kind of like a friend of mine that has a sense of smell that is extremely sensitive. They smell things that are unpleasant that I can't even detect. It's kind of a curse...

If you like it, it's an excellent product.

Teak decks left grey are more for the anti-slip aspect, which is one of the reasons they were first used. The anti-slip properties are excellent. Once they are finished, that property is diminished, if not totally gone. At least that's been my observation.

dj

 

[TomY]

Teak isn't your only source for decking. Custom boat builders are using tropical alternatives like Meranti that are sustainable tropical hardwoods and much more affordable.

When I built a new cockpit for my fiberglass Alden, I used Ipe. I don't believe I paid more than 1k for all the Ipe stock that I milled into decking.

 

[SoSound]

There is a mystery that I'm keen to solve, though. If you look at the picture of the cockpit - on the forward edge of the cockpit, there is a bulkhead with a small round port. Inside, on the bottom edge of that bulkhead, there is something like teek veneer plywood with old water damage along the bottom edge - right about at the level of the teak decking in the cockpit. (The source of the water was rectified some time ago, but the damage is done.)

View attachment 226104

I would be suspicious of the extended wood coaming around the companionway entry. It looks like a small seam directly below the port side lower corner and the hand hold in the interior photo, and that seam is also discolored. Another possibility would be the instrument (?) mounted between the round port and the companionway. Once inside, the water could just spread laterally behind the trim at the lower edge of the panel.

 

[Foswick]

I would be suspicious of the extended wood coaming around the companionway entry. It looks like a small seam directly below the port side lower corner and the hand hold in the interior photo, and that seam is also discolored. Another possibility would be the instrument (?) mounted between the round port and the companionway. Once inside, the water could just spread laterally behind the trim at the lower edge of the panel.

Yeah, on the inside, the water damage looks more or less consistent. That is, the discoloration is roughly the same all along the width of the damage, making it seem like it has a single cause. But, having contemplated this for a while, I'm betting I find at least to causes, and I suspect the same two locations you pointed out. I think there might be a third at the extreme port edge. That could be caused by any of about 3-4 holes in that neighbourhood.

Since the cabin is cored, water could easily wick some distance from the original point of ingress, as you point out.

This winter, I will be removing that interior surface and a whole new can of worms.

 

[dLj]

Teak isn't your only source for decking. Custom boat builders are using tropical alternatives like Meranti that are sustainable tropical hardwoods and much more affordable.

When I built a new cockpit for my fiberglass Alden, I used Ipe. I don't believe I paid more than 1k for all the Ipe stock that I milled into decking.
View attachment 226107

I'm not familiar with Meranti. Ipe is an excellent choice, in fact I'd prefer it over teak...

dj

 

[Foswick]

Teak isn't your only source for decking. Custom boat builders are using tropical alternatives like Meranti that are sustainable tropical hardwoods and much more affordable.

When I built a new cockpit for my fiberglass Alden, I used Ipe. I don't believe I paid more than 1k for all the Ipe stock that I milled into decking.

I guess I knew that but hadn't thought about it. Great suggestion!

 

[Foswick]

I've been looking more into ipe. Thanks again for the suggestion. I hadn't really considered it before because this boat has TONS of solid teak inside and out. So, it never occurred to me to use another wood that might look out of place, in contrast. But, as I intend to let it go grey, I think it would look great.

BTW, @TomY where does your cockpit floor drain? I assume there are scuppers on the forward corners?

 

[Foswick]

One option for the rebuild would be to use tongue-and-groove ipe decking, which is widely available. This would result in a very different look from the traditional caulked strips look that is pretty typical. I get the reasons for caulked strips in using wood for decking where the strips are really a relatively thin layer atop some substrate (usually fiberglass, these days).

In my case, I am basically making locker lids. Some are not actually lids and just attach directly to the cockpit, but the basic construction would be similar. It's just that some are hinged and some are permanently affixed.

The original panels (lids and otherwise) are made of plywood with teak bullnose trim around the periphery, and caulked strips screwed and/or glued to the top.

With the relative low cost of ipe, it becomes viable to just make solid 3/4" thick panels by edge joining 1x boards. The only time I see edge joining on exterior, horizontal surfaces, is either on residential decking or, in a marine context, on some powerboats on surfaces that are not really designed to be walked on. In the latter case, these are typically varnished and highly polished - not something appropriate for a sailboat cockpit.

I am wondering what the practical considerations are for why you don't really see edge-joined locker lids and such on sailboats.

My intuition is that, if you leave the wood unfinished, the repeated wetting and drying and thermal expansion/contraction would "challenge" these joints unless they were laminated on a layer with perpendicular joints, and even then, it might not hold up well after several years. Again, that's my intuition - not actual knowledge.

 

[TomY]

I've been looking more into ipe. Thanks again for the suggestion. I hadn't really considered it before because this boat has TONS of solid teak inside and out. So, it never occurred to me to use another wood that might look out of place, in contrast. But, as I intend to let it go grey, I think it would look great.

BTW, @TomY where does your cockpit floor drain? I assume there are scuppers on the forward corners?

Yes, there are two bronze scuppers forward in the cockpit sole and two smaller scuppers in the seat deck above that drain off spray and keep the seating dry

I've built a Sipo mahogany top on a deck box. It's sort of a test to see how it holds up. So far it appears to be a good decking material

BTW, no screws are left in anywhere in my work. All are removed after epoxy dries and full depth plugs are inserted with epoxy