Considering Teak Cockpit Makeover

Apr 25, 2024
123
Fuji 32 Bellingham
When I built a new cockpit for my fiberglass Alden, I used Ipe. I don't believe I paid more than 1k for all the Ipe stock that I milled into decking.
Can I ask how you constructed your cockpit. Looks great and I am just about resolved to give it a go with ipe. Where I am hung up is in deciding how to actually construct things.

The current design consists of panels constructed onto a plywood base. So, there is a 3/8" thick plywood rectangle. Bullnose trim runs around the edges of the plywood such that the bottom (underside) of the bullnose is flush with the underside of the plywood. This also creates a 1/4" inch lip around the top edge. Teak strips are inlaid inside that lip (inside the bullnose). Here's a diagram of roughly what I currently have:

layup.png


With the price of ipe being so low, there seems to be no advantage to using this plywood base when I could just make it solid ipe throughout. I would just edge join several pieces into solid panels, with no bullnose around the edge. But, then I would need to route out a recess to inlay the 1/4" strips. And, frankly, I would only be doing that to keep the look consistent. In fact, at that point, laying up strips really just makes the whole thing more of a hassle to maintain - just to make it look like the original.

What did you do? What would you say were the pros and cons of that approach?
 
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TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,768
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Can I ask how you constructed your cockpit. Looks great and I am just about resolved to give it a go with ipe. Where I am hung up is in deciding how to actually construct things.

The current design consists of panels constructed onto a plywood base. So, there is a 3/8" thick plywood rectangle. Bullnose trim runs around the edges of the plywood such that the bottom (underside) of the bullnose is flush with the underside of the plywood. This also creates a 1/4" inch lip around the top edge. Teak strips are inlaid inside that lip (inside the bullnose). Here's a diagram of roughly what I currently have:

View attachment 226222

With the price of ipe being so low, there seems to be no advantage to using this plywood base when I could just make it solid ipe throughout. I would just edge join several pieces into solid panels, with no bullnose around the edge. But, then I would need to route out a recess to inlay the 1/4" strips. And, frankly, I would only be doing that to keep the look consistent. In fact, at that point, laying up strips really just makes the whole thing more of a hassle to maintain - just to make it look like the original.

What did you do? What would you say were the pros and cons of that approach?
My boats hull and deck are solid fiberglass. But the cockpit is all wooden construction. I needed to build the entire structure whereas your cockpit is partly (I believe?), structural fiberglass.

So my method may not apply. I used 3/4" Fir Marine plywood to build the 'sub' cockpit. This means the lids, like the rest of the cockpit, are stable. The Ipe decking is veneer adhered to the ply. Having the failing original cockpit as a model, I improved drainage including building gutters around the lids to drain onto the sole.

The old cockpit was in fact a glue-up (with splines) of wide (8-10")teak planks. That worked for 50 years. A note: The cockpit sole originally was 1/2" plywood with teak decking. That always had some flex in it during my ownership. The new 3/4" Marine Fir sole/decking composite is solid as concrete

I used a bullnose like your sketch and that formed my frame for decking.

Cockpit bullnose trim dry fit (1 of 1).jpg


I also (as you see) built the entire cockpit in my shop, leaving the decking perimeter loose.

New cockpit- Ready for installation (1 of 1).jpg


A friend and I dropped the one-piece cockpit into the boat in the spring

Installation day- Crane moving cockpit-from deck (1 of 1).jpg
 
Apr 25, 2024
123
Fuji 32 Bellingham
@TomY Really cool! That must have been some relief when you dropped it in place and it fit.

You are right, my cockpit is pretty much all structrual fiberglass. What I am replacing are really just locker lids or panels that will be structurally similar to locker lids - just without hinges.

Your approach does inform mine, in that I am thinking that I will end up replicating the original structure - using plywood as the main panel body. I sort of like the idea of making edge-joined panels out of ipe, but I think this will just end up being a point of failure, particularly given the challenges I have read about with gluing ipe. I am not a skilled woodworker and, if I can mess it up, I will.
 
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TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,768
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
@TomY Really cool! That must have been some relief when you dropped it in place and it fit.

You are right, my cockpit is pretty much all structrual fiberglass. What I am replacing are really just locker lids or panels that will be structurally similar to locker lids - just without hinges.

Your approach does inform mine, in that I am thinking that I will end up replicating the original structure - using plywood as the main panel body. I sort of like the idea of making edge-joined panels out of ipe, but I think this will just end up being a point of failure, particularly given the challenges I have read about with gluing ipe. I am not a skilled woodworker and, if I can mess it up, I will.


I too read all the negatives online about IPE (and teak) and adhesive. So I talked to some local boat builders.

One I really trust said, 'Just try it'. I never thought of that!

I glued a piece of IPE decking to a scrap of the marine fir plywood with West epoxy slightly thickened, and 'clamped' it with the pan head screws I would use:

IPE epoxy test (1 of 1).jpg


Let it dry overnight and put the 3/4" fir ply in a vise and tighten a big crescent wrench on a end of IPE I left for the test:

IPE epoxy test 2 (1 of 1).jpg


And reefed hard on it until something let go:

IPE epoxy test 3 (1 of 1).jpg


So much for everything you read on the internet. I also had questions about the reputed oils in both Teak and Ipe and asked my friend about that as well. He works in a big shop that is always building multiple composite construction boats.

He said, "About half the guys (approx. 50 experienced boat builders) wipe with acetone, and half don't",...

I asked what he did and he said, "I don't"

So you can pass on that misinformation, or not :)

Anyway, that was 8 years ago and the Ipe hasn't budged.

Cockpit coamings.jpg
 
Apr 25, 2024
123
Fuji 32 Bellingham
I got some stock and a new blade and made my first few cuts today. I was pleased with how nicely it cut after reading that it could be difficult to work with. Having the right blade makes a difference, I suppose. I'm going to try to make some progress on this before Thursday, then I've got to get out the islands for a couple of weeks. Hopefully I can finish one locker lid before then. Ripped a bunch of 1/4" strips. Got a few blade marks but I allowed for that.
20240730_130416.jpg
 
Apr 25, 2024
123
Fuji 32 Bellingham
I just realized I haven't posted updates as I said I would. Unfortunately, I didn't have the forethought to take pictures of the process. My woodworking skills have historically been so lacking that I didn't think my process would be very exemplary. But, as it turns out, I am not too displeased with the results, so far. Here is the first panel loosely in place to check for fit:

20240813_131553.jpg


The caulk on other two panels to complete the transom is curing right now. I'll sand tomorrow, and nothing left to do by add hinges and stuff. Not perfect if you look too closely, but an upgrade.

Even though I didn't take pictures, I'll describe what I've done, in case anyone is considering taking this on.

The panels are constructed like this:
There is a 1/2 piece of plywood that makes most of the body of the panel. It is surrounded by bullnose trim milled from 3/4 inch thick stock. The bullnose is cut so there is a 1/2 inch deep notch on the bottom to accommodate the plywood. This leaves the bullnose top to raise 1/4" above the plywood. 1/4" strips are laid up in this space on top of the plywood.

I bought some 2x4 ipe and some 1x4. (The 1x4 resulted in quite a bit of waste, but I'll use it for something.) I also got a sheet of 1/2 inch sanded marine plywood.

With the 2x4, I set my table saw to rip 1/4 slices, resulting in strips with a thickness of 1/4 inch and a width of 1.5 inch. I used a Diablo thin-kerf blade which cut like butter, did not burn the wood, and allowed me to get a little more out of a 2x4.

Milling the bullnose was kind of pain, but mostly due to my inexperience. I milled it on the router table, using a 3/4" half-round bit for the rounded edge, and milling the 1/2" notch with a few passes for a straight bit. This process might have been pretty easy but I had to relearn some lessons about how to use a router table. Ipe is really hard, so you need to take your time.

With everything milled, the only tricky part is getting the corners cut perfectly to make a nice miter join. It is hard enough to get a perfect 45-degree angle, but two of my panels had odd angles. I have a very basic miter saw with really coarse angle indication. So, I cut about 1/8 inch long at my best approximation of the angle (within a degree or so). Then, I finessed the angle through trial-and-error on a belt sander.

With the frame laid out, I measured the interior polygon where the plywood would go, and cut plywood to match. Again, I cut a little generous and refined to an exact fit on the belt sander (my absolute favorite tool). When I was pleased with the fit, I taped the corners tightly with masking tape and temporarily clamped the trim to the plywood. Then, I drilled some slightly countersunk pilot holes through the trim and about 1/4" into the plywood.

I sealed the plywood with epoxy formulated for that purpose. For the first panel, I did not have the forethought to do this before gluing everything together. So, I had some issues with the very thin epoxy bleeding into the ipe trim. I was able to sand this out, but I learned that it was way better to seal the plywood before gluing it together. That's how I did the next two panels.

I glued the whole thing together with 5200 and screwed it in place. When cured, I removed the screws and drilled about 1/4" deep holes for plugs. I cut some plugs on the drill press out of scrap ipe. Note, I learned in the first panel not to get adhesive near any seams because it will squish out and become really difficult to remove, resulting in an unsightly white line at that seam.

I 3D printed some little spacers that I used to maintain equal spacing between the 1/4" slats. After cutting to fit and doing a dry layup, I laid them up with 5200, using the spacers to keep it neat. I learned that the best way to do this was to do the dry layup and use this to mark where all of the seams will be. Then, I laided down a single bead of 5200 just to the side of that line. So, when I laid a new slat in, I put it so that the edge just covered the bead, then slid it all the way over into place. (I know that isn't a good explanation, but the bottom line is I "smeared" them into place to get an approximately even distribution across the bottom of the slat without squishing much adhesive up into the seam.)

With that cured, I caulked with a generous bead, pressed firmly down into the cracks. I did not mask the seams with tape and am glad I didn't. It would have been unnecessary work. While the caulk cured, I epoxied the wood plugs into the holes. I finally learned that the smart thing to do is to draw a line on the top of the plug, indicating the direction of the grain. So, when I inserted the plugs, I could easily align the grain with the surrounding wood.

Let everything cure for a couple of days, then knocked the tops of the plugs off with a sharp chisel and shaved the raised caulk off with a razor. Then ... sanding ... lots and lots of sanding.

Finally, I cut some notches out for hinges and such and resealed those areas with epoxy.
 
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dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,975
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
Nice write-up! Looking good! Yeah, ipe is hard wood for sure...

dj
 
Apr 25, 2024
123
Fuji 32 Bellingham
I got the other two panels done and in place, completing the transom lockers which were in the worst shape. Overall, I'm pretty happy with the results, considering that my woodworkings skills have historically been ... wanting.

20240907_130546.jpg


I did hit a bit of a snag. The leftmost panel in the picture (the starboard panel) is not a locker lid like the other two. The old panel was just screwed and glued down to the fiberglass. When I pulled that up, what I found was a bit of a surprise. Even though it hadn't rained here for some time and it hadn't rained hard in weeks, there was considerable moisture on the underside of the panel. The plywood was like undercooked spaghetti and I could squeeze drops of water out of the rotten wood. It's not super clear how it stayed so wet, but here it is after it had dried out a bit. Obviously needed to be replaced:

20240907_130608.jpg


I had considered cutting the horizontal fiberglass surface onto which this panel was mounted to make it an actual locker lid, since the underlying space is just part of the shared locker area of the transom. But, seeing this clinched it. I didn't want to put my new panel down and have it eventually suffer the same fate.

So, I cut a big square opening. It is no exaggeration when I tell you the fiberglass was a 1/2 inch thick, not including over 1/8 inch of gel coat. Took forever to cut with the tools I had on hand, but it is done. (Forgot to take pictures.) I did take a "before" picture of the surface that I cut:

20240907_131559.jpg


I still need to glass in a nice lip around the hole I cut, but at least the wood can breath.

I'm going to let these panels weather over the winter before I do anymore of the cockpit, in case the panels just disintegrate because I did something stupid. Consider these a prototype for the rest of the cockpit.
 
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