I related my adventure over the 4th so Labor day Weekend I hoped for no adventures. No so. Coming down the same river, I look at the (M12 Universal) engine temp gauge (been doing that a lot since my 4th July adventure) and holy smokes, it's pegged!. Could not believe my eyes! Open the engine compartment and a plume of smoke, not holy looking at all. We were motor sailing near the river end narrow channel and so I shut down and the wife takes the helm. Did not take long to see the belt had broken. I had a new one on board, but of course the adjuster bolt was seized and I did not want to shear it off.. I cheated.... Was able to force the new belt on, started the engine back up but the fresh water circulating pump pulley was not turning so shut down again and got a very expensive tow back home. Back at the dock, I tried a re-start and it ran, this time that pulley turning but again with a big squeaking sound. The belt was very tight, maybe too tight (or do I likely have more serious damage?) At all times I had good water flow out the exhaust. Thoughts? Should I try getting the adjuster loose, adjust belt to 1" drop and see what happens or am I a dead duck more than likely?
Blown exhaust not enough I guess
- Thread starter odaydokay
- Start date
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,841
Thoughts?
- Broken belt, Why? If cause is seized Fresh Water Circulating Pump (#3) then you need to resolve that issue.
- This needs to be fixed. It is possible that your pulley's are not aligned. Misaligned they will damage the belt and bearings in the pumps or on the alternator. Remove the adjuster, align all the pulley's
- This is not good. Remove pump check the shaft and bearings for damage. If leaking, frozen or damaged rebuild the pump. There are kits for that.
- Squeaking sound should alarm you. Possible bearings damaged.
- Yes. When adjusting the belt follow the engine manual for tension. Usually 3/8' to 1/2" movement at the widest space, not 1". Don't take my word verify with your engine manual. Not a dead duck... maybe a bit winged but still paddling madly beneath the surface.
Yikes…
if you were able to push the new belt over the pulley, it s hard to believe it was too tight…I would have guessed too loose, hence the squeal.
But if the pump seized up, and wouldn’t turn, that will really create a squeal.
You said “At all times I had good water flow out the exhaust.”….I assume you mean after you got back to the dock, installed a new belt, and got the pump turning….
I think at this point it is a good idea to check all of the cooling system, including the pump/ impeller, belt, and fix the belt adjuster so you can tension it properly. And you might see if there is an over-heat alarm for that engine.
And hope the head didn’t get hot enough to warp or other other heat-related damage.
I had an engine alarm go off the day I started bringing my O’Day 322 home across Lake Michigan….I wasn’t sure what it was, but throttled back and it stopped buzzing. Turned out the HX was low on AF and I was able to baby it to the next port. Filled HX after things had cooled down, and was able to motor the 40 miles home the next day.
Good luck!
Greg
if you were able to push the new belt over the pulley, it s hard to believe it was too tight…I would have guessed too loose, hence the squeal.
But if the pump seized up, and wouldn’t turn, that will really create a squeal.
You said “At all times I had good water flow out the exhaust.”….I assume you mean after you got back to the dock, installed a new belt, and got the pump turning….
I think at this point it is a good idea to check all of the cooling system, including the pump/ impeller, belt, and fix the belt adjuster so you can tension it properly. And you might see if there is an over-heat alarm for that engine.
And hope the head didn’t get hot enough to warp or other other heat-related damage.
I had an engine alarm go off the day I started bringing my O’Day 322 home across Lake Michigan….I wasn’t sure what it was, but throttled back and it stopped buzzing. Turned out the HX was low on AF and I was able to baby it to the next port. Filled HX after things had cooled down, and was able to motor the 40 miles home the next day.
Good luck!
Greg
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,841
I read that. Greg the raw water pump produces the water out the exhaust. He stated the pulley on the "Fresh water pump" was not working. That would be the same as Coolant water circulating pump..
Then again terms could be confused.
I would get the adjustment bolt loose, take the belt off, and try to turn the fresh water pump by hand. It should turn smoothly and quietly. If it grinds or seems wonky in any way then my guess is that’s what shredded the belt. If the pump seems fine put the belt back on and to the right tension, then start the engine again to see if it still squeals. The squeal could either be the water pump bearings or belt squeal from the belt being too loose or unusual friction in one of the pulleys.
We overheated our M12 years ago, in similar circumstances. The belt shredded itself from old age, and we didn’t notice until the engine started losing power and putting out lots of black smoke. I was also confronted by lots of smoke (really steam I guess) when I opened the engine compartment. No permanent damage was done in our case.
We overheated our M12 years ago, in similar circumstances. The belt shredded itself from old age, and we didn’t notice until the engine started losing power and putting out lots of black smoke. I was also confronted by lots of smoke (really steam I guess) when I opened the engine compartment. No permanent damage was done in our case.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,841
I had a coolant pump fail. Actually it was the pumps seals. Coolant came out unde pressure through the weep holes. It looked like smoke but was really coolant super heated. The tell tale sign was the pump failed to rotate. Bearings were seized. Had my boat worker who claimed to be a mechanic at the time inspected the front of the engine the drip of coolant out the weep hole would have provided an indication. Fired the boat worker. Focused on learning the basics of a diesel engine and have not looked back. Had the pump rebuilt, learned how to do it my self for future needs.
You can do it as well.
You can do it as well.
I just went through this with my water pump - seized just as I entered the slip. The bearing had failed. Took two weeks to source a new pump and two more weeks to get it shipped in. Good luck finding a new pump.
always consider DEPCO in FL.Good luck finding a new pump.
Maybe take the belt off (after you free up the adjuster bolt) and start with the pump free wheeling and see how it behaves. If it proves to be in good working order, work your way up from there. If not, my condolences on the expence.
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Thanks to all. Back on it later today. Like an idiot, I did not look at the coolant level last night back at the dock after the tow. If it coked off, which may have been that smoke, the pump is now dry (and I would squeal too.) I agree it is hard to believe that belt is too tight now that I think about it. My manual states 1/2' deflection which is not much. The seawater pump seemed to be discharging normal quantity at the time of the overheat. It was the coolant pump that was seized but now turns at least. If I get away with a rebuild of that, I will count myself lucky. The seawater pump should also now get a new impeller, agree 100% about that. Kind of all of you to chime in so quickly.
It is a good practice to carry a replacement for every belt and pump on board. All pumps fail eventually. That includes head manual pump, engine cooling pumps, macerator pumps, bilge pumps, fresh water pump, Etc. I had a replacement for every one of those except the fresh water (drinking) pump. Guess which one failed last week.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,841
So the unit was way down on coolant, a good quart, so around half gone. That made no difference as the fresh water pump would not turn. So now if anyone knows if I should turn to Depco (great outfit from whom I got a raw water pump years ago) or someone else (?) for a rebuild kit (but only if the parts will handle anything that is wrong with it) or a new unit. According to my manual, the original part number 301336. Looks like Westerbeke sells now for well over $300, so if an amateur can do the work, I would be up for that. Does not look hard to remove. I am guessing cleaning the flange and setting a new gasket will be part of the operation. So again fellas, any suggestions would be welcome.
Your engine is probably a Kubota at heart, but I do not know which model. It is much cheaper to get the pump from Kubota a known quality aftermarket supplier rather than from a Westerbeke distributor. If you have a Kubota dealer close by, take the pump in with you and they can probably match you up. I got one for my M25XP for about $70.
Freshwater pumps will fail because of too much tension on the belt or a misaligned belt. This will cause the shaft to bend ever so slightly and over time, the bearings wear and the pump seizes. The same can happen if the pump is run dry, it can over heat and seize.
@RoyS advises, carry extra pumps if you will be going far afield. We carried an extra drinking water pump, engine freshwater pump, and toilet pump.
@RoyS advises, carry extra pumps if you will be going far afield. We carried an extra drinking water pump, engine freshwater pump, and toilet pump.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,841
I am going to suggest a novel concept.
Perhaps (and this is a PacificNW thought, it is raining here), you might want to look at the pump and identify the number, brand, model specified on the pump case. With that information you can search for an OEM or a replacement pump.
Many sources and likely many prices.
My engine is a Perkins. The pump is a Sherwood, Jabsco, Oberdorfer or a Perkins depending on the pump.
Perhaps (and this is a PacificNW thought, it is raining here), you might want to look at the pump and identify the number, brand, model specified on the pump case. With that information you can search for an OEM or a replacement pump.
Many sources and likely many prices.
My engine is a Perkins. The pump is a Sherwood, Jabsco, Oberdorfer or a Perkins depending on the pump.
It sounds like his problem is the engine coolant pump not the raw water pump so Kubota parts suppliers will get him fixed.
Yes, not the raw water pump. Been there and done that. Getting the Kubota part is a clever idea, but how to cross reference from the Universal M12? Why it failed is a good question. If it wqs the belt that started, then I am to blame. Installed in 1995 or earlier and misalignment or not, it could have just rotted in that time. Not a ton of hours, but a ton of years. My blame.
And now I find there are two part numbers for the pump depending on the 1/2" or 3/8" clearance, though maybe that is only relevant for a rebuild, which I am leaning away from as I worry about not getting the part of it that failed, like bearings.
And now I find there are two part numbers for the pump depending on the 1/2" or 3/8" clearance, though maybe that is only relevant for a rebuild, which I am leaning away from as I worry about not getting the part of it that failed, like bearings.
I have never seen a coolant pump that is rebuildable other than returning the core for a remanufactured one.
After doing a bit of research, it seems like the engine matches to a Kubota Z-400.
Fresh Water pump for Universal M-12 | SailNet Community