Boom kicker or topping lift?

[fred1diver]

Hello everyone, I hope all is well, getting tired or my pigtail at the end en the boom, wondering if I should install a real Topping lift or a boom kicker?
what are your thoughts on both?

 

[mermike]

I like my Boomkicker. Just don't try to swing from the end of the boom. It will go badly.

 

[rgranger]

One thing I like about a topping lift is you can tension it just a little bit when on a run and it’ll fatten your sail up.

 

[DayDreamer41]

If you go with a kicker then make it active (internal gas shock) and you will have to also add a boom vang if you don't have one already
Edit: it appears that after looking at your boat picture you already have a vang. Our boat has both the active kicker and the topping lift, I use the vang/active kicker when sailing, I ease the load on the kicker with the topping lift when not sailing, the thing about a gas shock is, if over compressed there is a good chance of blowing the seals, learning the hard way I speak first hand on this.

 

[David in Sandusky]

I use a topping lift and a van. Don’t see a need for more!

 

[dlochner]

If you go with a kicker, use the main halyard as a topping lift when you're not sailing. It is not a good idea, regardless of the kind of rigid vang, to let the vang support the weight of the boom and sail. When the main is hoisted the sail helps to support the weight, when it is down all of the weight is on the rigid vang.

 

[Will Gilmore]

One thing I like about a topping lift is you can tension it just a little bit when on a run and it’ll fatten your sail up.

How does that work?
[Edit] never mind. I read "flatten" instead of "fatten".

If you go with a kicker, use the main halyard as a topping lift when you're not sailing.

I like this idea. I'm a fan of the kicker for simplicity in the rigging, but of you want to stretch out on a boom hung hammock, the halyard is a great idea. Also, is it to help retrieve that MOB.

-Will

 

[FastOlson]

Once you install a rod vang, and get rid of the 'wandering' topping lift you will soon wish you had made that upgrade sooner. A lot sooner.

 

[Hollyberry]

I'm with those who suggest a rigid/supporting vang of some sort and storing the main halyard at the end of the boom as a topping lift.

 

[Parsons]

Boomkickers are well-made and fairly simple to install - an easy afternoon upgrade. An additional advantage of clipping and tensioning the main halyard to the boom end, it eliminates one source of halyard slap.

I don't really understand @dlochner 's comment about "It is not a good idea, regardless of the kind of rigid vang, to let the vang support the weight of the boom and sail." -- Where is the additional wear, on the rigid vang?

 

[dlochner]

I don't really understand @dlochner 's comment about "It is not a good idea, regardless of the kind of rigid vang, to let the vang support the weight of the boom and sail." -- Where is the additional wear, on the rigid vang?

The boom will bounce and move while the boat is at the dock or moored. This causes additional wear. Also when the sail is hoisted the weight of the sail and the boom is supported by the halyard and the kicker, so there is less stress on the kicker. More stress, more wear, shorter life.

A rigid vang has a big spring inside the tubes, it is the spring that supports the boom.

 

[kloudie1]

Topping lift is a problem for those with large roaches (as here in Louisiana? )

 

[rgranger]

Topping lift is a problem for those with large roaches (as here in Louisiana? )

In Charleston (pronounced Chaaaarrrston) the are called Palmetto bugs.

Edit: And they fly

 

[rgranger]

How does that work?
[Edit] never mind. I read "flatten" instead of "fatten".

LoL

On my H26, I added three additional deck organizing turning blocks and then ran EVERYTHING back to the cockpit, including the outhaul, topping and vang. When it is easy, you are more likely to use every possible sail control. When it was a PITA I less likely to bother with minor sail controls on a short tack. But after I ran everthing to the cockpit, I found I was regularly slacking the outhaul, nudging the topping lift and tensioning the vang anytime the wind was abaft of beam.

 

[jdrutten]

The boom will bounce and move while the boat is at the dock or moored. This causes additional wear. Also when the sail is hoisted the weight of the sail and the boom is supported by the halyard and the kicker, so there is less stress on the kicker. More stress, more wear, shorter life.

A rigid vang has a big spring inside the tubes, it is the spring that supports the boom.

I don't have a spring in my rigid vang, but I do have an in-mast furler. Am I inducing wear by not using the topping lift? I thought the spring was mostly used for inducing belly in light wind. Also, isn't it part of the point of having a rigid vang, in order to do away with the topping lift? (I feel like I'm in the "valley of despair" on the Dunning-Kruger curve)

 

[dlochner]

I don't have a spring in my rigid vang, but I do have an in-mast furler. Am I inducing wear by not using the topping lift? I thought the spring was mostly used for inducing belly in light wind. Also, isn't it part of the point of having a rigid vang, in order to do away with the topping lift? (I feel like I'm in the "valley of despair" on the Dunning-Kruger curve)

The purpose of a vang, rigid or otherwise is to keep the boom from lifting, especially down wind. The spring keeps the vang in a neutral position and is generally strong enough to support the weight of the boom and sail. If you have rigid vang and release the tension on it the boom can bounce, try it. A secondary benefit is the rigid vang will support the boom when the sail is being raised, lowered, or reefed. Without a topping lift or rigid vang as soon as halyard tension is released the boom will drop as far as the gooseneck will allow it, often with unpleasant consequences for the heads of anyone in the cockpit.

Using the halyard as a topping lift reduces the amount of bounce in the boom and allows the boom to be raised higher to provide more headroom in the cockpit.

There are other ways to increase draft in the mainsail, reduced halyard tension and reduced outhaul tension will increase draft. However my knowledge about furling mains is rather limited, there may be furling issues with reduced tension on the halyard and outhaul.

If there is no spring in the rigid vang, how is it rigged to extend and release? The vang control typically pulls the upper section down towards the lower section against the spring, releasing the control allows the spring to push the upper section up allowing the boom to rise. The spring may not be visible as it may be contained within the tubing.

 

[FastOlson]

If there is no spring in the rigid vang, how is it rigged to extend and release? The vang control typically pulls the upper section down towards the lower section against the spring, releasing the control allows the spring to push the upper section up allowing the boom to rise. The spring may not be visible as it may be contained within the tubing.

A "rod vang" can use a coiled spring to supply the up force, or a flexed frp pair of rods, or a gas cylinder. Having had an OEM vang with the gas cylinder that lost pressure, I prefer the coil spring which can have the compression length (i.e. the up force) adjusted with a pin.

 

[Davidasailor26]

There are other ways to increase draft in the mainsail, reduced halyard tension and reduced outhaul tension will increase draft. However my knowledge about furling mains is rather limited, there may be furling issues with reduced tension on the halyard and outhaul.

With in mast furling the outhaul is easily adjusted. It’s used to unfurl the sail initially, but after that it’s just like trimming any other loose footed sail. Furling can be sensitive to halyard tension. So it is possible to tune the halyard while sailing, but it’s best to return it to its neutral position before furling.

But - while the outhaul and halyard focus on draft depth and position, the vang’s primary purpose is to control twist. It’s not really possible to control twist in any other way, especially off the wind once the boom is past the end of the traveler.

 

[jdrutten]

...
If there is no spring in the rigid vang, how is it rigged to extend and release? The vang control typically pulls the upper section down towards the lower section against the spring, releasing the control allows the spring to push the upper section up allowing the boom to rise. The spring may not be visible as it may be contained within the tubing.

I have a Selden Rodkicker, which is sold with an "optional" gas spring. The rodkicker simply slides out when I release the tackle as I try to dial in proper twist. I haven't noticed any particular springy action, but it seems like the wind alone will lift the boom to provide twist. But maybe not enough? I suppose it's possible that there's an old worn out gas spring inside that is completely shot. With winter haul-out coming, maybe I should just pull it off to install a spring for a winter upgrade that I didn't know I needed.

 

[rgranger]

But - while the outhaul and halyard focus on draft depth and position, the vang’s primary purpose is to control twist. It’s not really possible to control twist in any other way, especially off the wind once the boom is past the end of the traveler.

Hmmm.... I'll have to think on that. I agree that the vang is most important when the traveler block is at the end of the track but when I am on a run, I don't think of the vang as inducing any twist in the top of my sail (why would I want to do that ???) but rather it holds my boom down and keeps it from riding up.