A story of the engine that could.... Then didn't…NOW DOES

[jon hansen]

a lot of concerned speculation being offered. like throwing darts at board.

doing proper maintenance, as john has been doing is good.

audible clunk then froze up, sounds like a wrist pin let loose. that means total rebuild. just my dart, too.

been running a 107 for 49 seasons. it's old. still runs. know it very well.

so john, here is my opinion. based on the fact that parts for our engines are getting harder to find, fact. a rebuild will be a poor choice. in 5 years those parts will be even harder to locate. so, if you like your boat and the ride it gives you, repower and never look back. yep 30k should be about right, maybe a tad less.
you can then enjoy that sweet cal with it's great sailing abilities all over the NW.

do not rebuild, repower. it is what it is. the sooner you order the new engine the sooner it arrives. tow the boat to a skilled yard and get er done

you are going to love the new engine!

just my $0.02

 

[Hayden Watson]

...
audible clunk then froze up, sounds like a wrist pin let loose. that means total rebuild. just my dart, too.
...

If the engine was running I might agree but it was not. It had been turning over just fine and then he removed and replaced the injectors. After that, it turned a little and went clunk. no more than one revolution. There is no force conceivable in cranking and engine without ignition that would break a wrist pin. It sounds more to me like something accidentally dropped into the injector hole and has bound up the piston.

 

[Hayden Watson]

It doesn't look like parts should be a problem. $700 will replace everything and allow you to convert your 107 to a 108 if the cylinders are scored. A quality machine shop should be able to machine out the cylinders to receive the liners in the kit.

 

[dLj]

While I agree with the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" in this case it was broke and John looked to fix it. Running a circumnavigation of Vancouver Island is well beyond "coastal cruising". Yes it certainly sucks to be in this situation.

As all the work has currently been done on the top end, in my mind that's the general part of the engine that seems more likely where the problem lies. Pull the head, see what you find. Try turning the engine over with the head off if you don't see an obvious reason. You are definitely going to have to pull the engine if that's the case.

Then the decision tree is fix engine for sale, or fix engine to keep the boat. That decision will help decide how to go about engine rebuild/replace/new engine.

If keeping boat my vote is repower with new. But it's easy for me to spend another's money....

dj

 

[Hayden Watson]

While I agree with the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" in this case it was broke and John looked to fix it. Running a circumnavigation of Vancouver Island is well beyond "coastal cruising". Yes it certainly sucks to be in this situation.

As all the work has currently been done on the top end, in my mind that's the general part of the engine that seems more likely where the problem lies. Pull the head, see what you find. Try turning the engine over with the head off if you don't see an obvious reason. You are definitely going to have to pull the engine if that's the case.

Then the decision tree is fix engine for sale, or fix engine to keep the boat. That decision will help decide how to go about engine rebuild/replace/new engine.

If keeping boat my vote is repower with new. But it's easy for me to spend another's money....

dj

To my way of thinking, I would rather rebuild an old school simple mechanical engine for 1k-2k than spend big money to get new electronic control engine. The old mechanical diesel engines just keep on running but all of that electronic stuff is the failure point in the new stuff. A full long block overhaul will replace every wear or leak point and give you essentially a new old school engine which is very hard to beat from a reliability standpoint.
But in full discloser, I am an old school farm diesel mechanic where we were taught to fix it rather than replace it. Back when I worked as a mechanic, every shop worth visiting had a starter/alternator lathe to turn the commutator and rebuild the starters and alternators. This week, I called three different "Auto Electric" specialty shops about getting the bearings and brushes replaced on my 25-yr old Ample Power rebuilt. I was told by one and all "we don't rebuild, we replace."

 

[SoSound]

Arghhh… that‘s not the news that I was hoping to hear from you. I’ll add my vote to pulling the head before removing the engine, if for no other reason than seeing if you can find the obstruction (and, reducing weight). You‘ve already removed the transmission and it’s still seized in both directions? Then the obstruction is still either in or on the engine… (duh..) checking for something that’s jammed the ring gear is worth looking for (it would have a leverage advantage over trying to turn the crankshaft by hand).

I had another friend who did a Vancouver Island circumnavigation several years ago, his engine seized on him just short of halfway into the cruise! I know it’s small comfort, but at least you won’t need to add air freight to Port Hardy into the ledger!

Good luck!

 

[dLj]

To my way of thinking, I would rather rebuild an old school simple mechanical engine for 1k-2k than spend big money to get new electronic control engine. The old mechanical diesel engines just keep on running but all of that electronic stuff is the failure point in the new stuff. A full long block overhaul will replace every wear or leak point and give you essentially a new old school engine which is very hard to beat from a reliability standpoint.
But in full discloser, I am an old school farm diesel mechanic where we were taught to fix it rather than replace it. Back when I worked as a mechanic, every shop worth visiting had a starter/alternator lathe to turn the commutator and rebuild the starters and alternators. This week, I called three different "Auto Electric" specialty shops about getting the bearings and brushes replaced on my 25-yr old Ample Power rebuilt. I was told by one and all "we don't rebuild, we replace."

If indeed you can get that engine rebuilt for $1k to $2k I would agree. But I have not been able to get work of the caliber needed to fit your description even remotely close to that price. When was the last time you took a Diesel engine to a machine shop to get rebored, head and valves all redone and the bottom end rebuilt? Me thinks it’s been some time, or you have a friend with a machine shop.
The last engine I tried to do that with I would have saved little from buying a new engine - and that was with me doing all the disassembly and reassembly of the components.
Parts are hard to find and expensive. Machine shop time is not cheap. If I could get these older engines rebuilt for the price you’ve stated, I do it every time.

dj

 

[Hayden Watson]

If indeed you can get that engine rebuilt for $1k to $2k I would agree. But I have not been able to get work of the caliber needed to fit your description even remotely close to that price. When was the last time you took a Diesel engine to a machine shop to get rebored, head and valves all redone and the bottom end rebuilt? Me thinks it’s been some time, or you have a friend with a machine shop.
The last engine I tried to do that with I would have saved little from buying a new engine - and that was with me doing all the disassembly and reassembly of the components.
Parts are hard to find and expensive. Machine shop time is not cheap. If I could get these older engines rebuilt for the price you’ve stated, I do it every time.

dj

I posted a link to a $700 total long-block overhaul kit that contains every part including cylinder sleeves, pistons, rings, valves, guides, gaskets,....
I didn't say anything about having it "rebuilt". I was talking about a DIY overhaul. It is likely that the cylinder sleeves are fine and can just be honed and used as-is. It is true that I have not recently checked on the cost for the machining. That would be the crank main and rod journals and value seats unless he decides that they are in ok condition and can just be lapped. A quick call to a local machine shop indicates that head reconditioning is $300 - $500. The crank might be the same or not need anything.

 

[jon hansen]

Hayden, i love to have gents like you as permanent crew. a good wrench is a blessing.

 

[Hayden Watson]

Hayden, i love have gents like you as permanent crew. a good wrench is a blessing.

I am just of the opinion that if it can be fixed for a fraction of the cost and hassle, then fix it. Everyone I have talked to about a repower has told me that it isn't the cost of the engine that will kill you, it is all of the little changes to existing systems that get you.

 

[dLj]

I am just of the opinion that if it can be fixed for a fraction of the cost and hassle, then fix it. Everyone I have talked to about a repower has told me that it isn't the cost of the engine that will kill you, it is all of the little changes to existing systems that get you.

The question seems to be what fraction is really going to be the cost. If it's 90% the cost of a new engine - is it really worth that 10% less? Now if you're at 50% of new - for me now we are talking like it's a winner.

I'm an old farmer. I used to do all my own work. I never considered my labor as "important" in the end cost. I've come to realize that's a fundamental mistake. My time is worth as much (indeed,-more) than the professional I'd have to pay to do the work. The older I get, the more my time is worth. On top of that, am I really going to do a better job than a full time machinist that does this kind of work all day? Not likely. So the cost of parts is just part of this work. In the case of the Perkins 4107, it seems that the parts are inexpensive so that's a plus. Here's to hoping that indeed the parts are the correct parts. We don't know this yet...

What makes a boat more saleable - a boat with an old rebuilt engine? Or a boat with a new engine? How much is that really worth? Will the install with a new engine bump the value up enough to cover the added cost of putting in a new engine? Then you have the aspects of the fact that new engine will be quieter, use less fuel, likely have less vibrations. Where's the price point for those aspects? How about your sailing enjoyment?

I have a new engine in my boat (came with the boat - I didn't put it in). It was definitely an aspect that was a selling point. My engine sits under the main saloon. I can sit in my main saloon and have a normal conversation with someone across the table from me with that engine running at cruising speed. If the original engine my boat was built with was still in - even if it had just been completely rebuilt - that would not be happening... The two people would be yelling, or at least talking in loud tones to be able to be heard.

It really seems to me a rather complicated decision. What would be my price point? I think I'd have to be at least at 50% of a new engine install to go the rebuild route. Granted, the reliability of the non-computer running diesels is very high - likely higher than the modern diesel running computers. But putting in a new engine - those electronics are still going to outlive the current owner. So both options have more than sufficient reliability for this boats current projected use. The advantages of a new engine are substantial. I'm glad I am not in John's position to have to make this decision. Pick a price point - for me - if rebuild is roughly 50% the cost of a new engine install - I'm open. Much more than that and I'm getting more interested in a new engine. I think in deciding on the new engine, the mentality has be be aware you are doing a full new engine install with all existing systems being redone. Went you go into it thinking that isn't the case - that's the real "killer"... Just went through a new Beta install on my brothers boat - in the end - that was a really good choice over rebuilding the original....

dj

 

[jssailem]

Well here is the update as of today.

Got a call back from the Transmission guys. My V-Drive can be rebuilt for about $4800. They said they can do the rebuild and modify the drive to work on a Beta for about $6800.

Current Beta lists at $19K

At present still do not know what caused the seizure. A rebuild of the Perkins 4.107 is between $8-10K if it is possible.

The present plan is to remove the head to see if the cause is on the top end. It will also make it easier to remove the engine from the boat. Plan is to work on it this coming weekend.

I am inclined to try and rebuild the 4.107. The re-power while tempting also is complicated by the need for a V-Drive. The boat places limits on the servicability of the Beta as it is designed to have all the service in the front of the engine. This would be against a bulk head in my boat. Because the Beta sits differently than the Perkins on the engine stringers there would be several thousand involved in different exhaust and prop shaft design. I do not have all the specifics yet but the discussion with the engine folk raised many more questions. It is said it is only money. But I would like to spend it wisely. Makes the Cruise Kitty fatter.

So spending more time in discover with the 4.107. Getting it out of the boat is the primary goal. Then I can have it overhauled and with fingers crossed get the rebuild done by mid October. I will also have the high pressure pump serviced. Since it all is coming out might as well. With the engine on the hard September may also be Paint the bottom and thru hull service.

Then reinstall the engine and cross my fingers.

Anyone have a winning lottery ticket they might share?

 

[dLj]

So rebuild roughly $15K - new beta roughly $26K plus install. Pretty darned close to my 50% price point, might even be better depending on install costs... (of course you aren't counting your time...)

Keeping my fingers crossed!

dj

 

[Crusty Ol Salt]

Dude, what a story. I wish I had some prophetic advice but I do not. Best I can do is send thoughts and prayers while you battle this beast. Looking forward to read more as the saga proceeds.

Many blessings and good luck.

 

[jssailem]

Thank you Marcus. Your prayers and good thoughts much appreciated.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Best of luck removing the head. I'd place my money on something falling in a cylinder

If not, let us know when the GoFundMe page up

 

[mermike]

checking for something that’s jammed the ring gear is worth looking for

This, John. Ties back to the previously noted starter issue.

 

[Mark Maulden]

If you get a price for a rebuild, be sure to get a listing of what is REPLACED..I capped that cuz there are things that could be reused in the price of a rebuild. Heat exchanger, raw/fresh water pump, Injector pump, fuel pump, etc..All the ancillary stuff that can still ruin your day(s)..When I still had my old Volvo that kept getting stuck valves (that nobody could figure out why), and I kept spending time fishing out broken tappet parts and bent pushrods, the Admiral finally said just replace it. The rest is history. Replaced with Beta and also new saildrive. Admiral said I better do what I need/want, cuz that’s it. So I added a feathering prop. So, what I’m saying here is if you repower and fix the tranny, you have peace of mind for the type of cruising you want to do. I sure do. And it looks like you have spent some boat bucks on sails etc. so it looks like you like the boat and would like to keep it and cruise With confidence. And Beta parts are Kubota parts..I will not recover the replace price, but that isn’t a priority. Of course we’re all waiting for what you find..

 

[dLj]

@Mark Maulden Seems the point you are making is an aspect many seem to forget - there are many parts that can shut you down that are often overlooked in a "rebuild". When you put in a new engine - you are typically putting in complete new systems in all of those areas that may not necessarily rebuilt.

dj

 

[jssailem]

Thanks for the insight. This support is why I posted the issue.

I have been wrastling (my English Teacher would circle that word in red and dock me a couple of points. Call it writers choice - poetic license.) with the mental gymnastics for a few weeks. Some of the attachments (marinizing parts) for what is often called a tractor motor, have been serviced or were in line for planned service. The "Don't fix it if it Ain't broke" theory sometimes leads to:
"Ok fool now it is broke. What are you going to do now?"

The transmission while still working was on the list to be serviced. This is the optimum time. The hoses from transmision to cooler were suspect. Every now and then there was hesitation in the tranny to go to work. And that persistent occasional drip that would seep out of the gaskets were motivation for the overhaul. Sure it was working, but was it reliable?

The High Pressure fuel Pump is one of those "Just Do It" projects.

The pressure is on to learn that the engine block is not screwed up. I am also measuring the time to resolve the issues. Will the boat be back in operation in 6 weeks, 4 months 6 plus months?

I am reading a new to me book from Amazon Unlimited. "The Essentials of Living Aboard a Boat. by Mark Nicholas" Though I am just at the beginning of the book the perspective in the Preface is intriguing. The writer wants to share those insights that only come from the experience of buying, and being a liveaboard can share. The Essentials of Living Aboard a Boat

I am not suggesting this is a "got to read" book, I have not read enough. I did like this is in the intro by Mark Nicholas:

"There are as many variations of liveaboards as there are liveaboards, and it is important to know who you want to be and what you want to achieve. Without this understanding, it is difficult or impossible for you to choose the best boat, the perfect marina, and the “right” amenities and equipment. Know thyself."

Certainly, I have explored what that is. More recently I have worked on, "Is this the boat that will serve my needs/desires" and if so how do I now address this crossroads with the engine.

As they say stay tuned... All will be revealed.