Installing a composting head on board CHRISTMAS.

[dLj]

so how do you get the liquids off the boat and where do they get dumped?

While in my marina at the moment, I'll dump them down the marina toilet as if I was talking an extra long pee... In other areas I'll see, depending upon where I am.

so how do you get the solids off the boat and where do they get dumped?

I'll treat this in a similar fashion to diamper disposal.

my 1975 mansfield vac u flush head works so well,, and has since new for sailing with a full crew, why would i want to change?

You probably don't want to change. No reason to. I'm changing because I have one toilet that either gets an involved redesign and rebuild and going with the composting toilet it's a simple easy fix. My second toilet I decided to change because it blocks access to fundamental systems in the boat, eats a lot of storage space, needs rework as it currently is, so I'm just simply going with two composting heads.

note: zero dumping allowed on the lakes. (even peeing over the side is ticket worthy). pump out stations everywhere.

I do not have pump out stations everywhere, and in fact, they are quite inconvenient for me. Different sailing areas...

what am i missing?

Why do you think you're missing something?

dj

 

[dLj]

Tom, two words of caution. Solid waste from humans shouldn't go in a compost pile if it’s to be used in a vegetable garden. Meat eating animal waste contains some nasty microbes. Also I wouldn’t water the trees with the liquid waste. They’re not partial to uric acid. Good luck with your new system.

This comment, or at least one along these lines, seems to always come up when folks start talking about composting heads. It does not seem to have a lot of weight. Here's a quote from a thread on Cruisers and Sailing Forums on a thread I was watching some time back. It's a very well documented and thought out response. I followed all the links (including ones in that thread not posted here) and have not found any data to support this concern, at least at any level of significance. Here's the quote, hopefully the links also come through:

"I have an uncanny habit of clicking-through links when people post. If no link is posted, I sometimes google. Never ceases to amaze me how many times the link bears near-zero semblance to the claim. I know this extends the off-topic discussion, but I am hoping the information is useful down the road.

For example, when I googled "EPA document 832-F-99-066", first reference was this 1999 EPA circular still referenced on current EPA info sites "Water Efficiency Technology Fact Sheet - Composting Toilets" While geared towards land-based (and thus larger) systems, it talks in glowing terms about the benefits of a system that separates liquids from solids. Building on this is a 132 page research paper out of Purdue University - section 2.5.1 describes low-temp compost systems which include those such as Nature's Head, et al. Importantly, agitation greatly improves aerobic decomposition.

This bears emphasis as "these are not composting heads" always comes-up on these threads as if there is a bait/switch going on to fool people into believing something they shouldn't. Here is the direct quote:

Low-temperature composting is used in cases where constant addition to a compost pile is not available and regular maintenance of a composting toilet is not an option or desire such as most commercial and homemade composting toilets. Another name for this type of toilet is a mouldering toilet. Typically, they operate at room temperature and compost a mixture of feces and bulking material such as sawdust.​

The paper goes on to discuss pathogens and transfer (2.6.2). In 1st world countries such as US, pathogens are extremely rare. As to transfer from an infected person, the most common problem is where drinking water becomes contaminated (think: Ganges River in India). For direct transfer from an infected person, you must have contact with and ingest their feces - in other words, don't drink waste-contaminated water; don't use the compost on vegetables; and wash your hands after handling garbage or using a toilet (or working on your head system). Very low risks and hardly unique to compost head users."

My takeaways? First, confirms separating liquid and solid is needed for these types of compost-heads. Second, due to shortened 'compost' time, agitation is needed to enhance aerobic action. Guessing this is the short coming of DIY systems. Third, the really nasty pathogens are a problem in third-world countries and quite rare in developed countries. Finally, pathogen or germ transfer is mitigated by known sanitation procedures.

In short - nothing to see here. Move along. Compost heads are MSD Type III devices. Buy a compost head if you want. Don't buy one if you don't want. But please, stop criticizing the decision of those who do. The science is not on your side. The risks are low and not unique to compost heads (and are manageable regardless). The benefits are high and are, in the eyes of adopters, much greater than the nuisance/risk factors of the alternatives. It may not be your cup of tea, but that's okay."

dj

 

[jon hansen]

dlj, i was missing the knowledge. i did learn that pump out stations are not everywhere on the east coast. i am usually at my local boatyard where aeolus has been since coming back from a 3 year visit to maine back in 1980. not a marina, every dock has a pumpout station. i can drive up to and park at the dock. throughout the great lakes, pump outs are everywhere. no diaper dumpsters at the yard.

if you want to compost, great.

 

[dLj]

dlj, i was missing the knowledge. i did learn that pump out stations are not everywhere on the east coast. i am usually at my local boatyard where aeolus has been since coming back from a 3 year visit to maine back in 1980. not a marina, every dock has a pumpout station. i can drive up to and park at the dock. throughout the great lakes, pump outs are everywhere. no diaper dumpsters at the yard.

if you want to compost, great.

I used to be on Lake Champlain, lots of pump out stations there also. But now, down on the Chesapeake, there are none in my immediate area. So for me to go to the pump out option, I'd have to plan it out and it would be quite inconvenient.

I've had mixed feelings of going to composting. But from everything I've learned over the past couple years it seems to be a viable option for me. There have been some very excellent conversations on composting versus traditional boat heads and in the end, I think is going to work well for my situation. I don't know it yet but looks promising. One thing that is unquestionable, I will really welcome the added storage space I'll gain... The rest - time will tell.

One thing that has rather surprised me during the time I've spent researching this option is the very heated opinions people have on this particular subject. I don't understand that aspect, but there it is. Almost all negative opinions appear based on either personal preferences or simply mis-information. Personal opinions are fine, if someone doesn't like/want this system then I'm totally open to knowing why they don't like or want it. For sure, it is not the answer to all sailing needs. But the misinformation part really puzzles me.

I started working in alternative systems, all sorts, including non-traditional waste management systems back in the 1970's. Back then there were a lot of pro's and con's type discussions but I don't recall the heated, degrading type commentaries as I find today. I don't understand this transformation...

dj

 

[sesmith]

. Also I wouldn’t water the trees with the liquid waste. They’re not partial to uric acid.

Plants seem to like urine due to the nitrogen. My proof? When we had horses, the grass always grew in nice big bright green clumps where they peed (and a horse pees a lot when it does). Another story...when we had a garden one year, the first row was swiss chard. I noticed that the plant on the end was big and really healthy, much larger than the rest of the row, much nicer, belonged in a state fair. Couldn't figure it out until I saw our golden retriever peeing on it one day. It had become a habit, as all bad dog things do.(that dog also learned to pick strawberries, all of them). I refused to eat that plant, but it was a nice one. So I doubt the trees care where I dump the urine from my C-head in the woods.

 

[jssailem]

I questioned the idea.. Is urine good on plants?

Observing my wife's dog, how she would rather squat on the lawn then the area we built to manage her urine, I notice several brown patches where she has left her mark.

Is Urine A Good Fertilizer for Fruit Trees? (The Truth) – Couch to Homestead

couchtohomestead.com

Urine is generally acidic, high in nitrogen, and easily absorbed, making it a great fertilizer for most plants. However, the nitrogen from urea is usually too potent to use directly on plants. For best results, dilute 1 part urine to 10 parts water, or compost it. Urinating on plants on occasion won’t harm them.

You may leave a trail of green flourishing plants or there may be a series of dead yellow over nitrogen treated plants along your walk way.

 

[dLj]

I questioned the idea.. Is urine good on plants?

I was wondering the same thing. As a kid, i used to work for a vet and he would water his shrubs with the animal urine from his practice. At the time, i asked and he had replied it was good for plants. Fast forward however many years to today, and i decided to ask my resident Master Gardener. The reply was a bit more comprehensive than i can relay here (given i don't know enough about the series of plants and their various stages of development so much of her explanation went over my head) but the 10:1 dilution in your reference was low. Her take was 20:1 for blah blah blah and up to 50:1 for yada yada yada... Of course there were segues into various plant types and where in the stage of development and then, of course, the frequency of application ...

Bottom line - good stuff if properly applied. I also asked about potential harm as in contamination harm, and that brought a puckered brow with the question, "What are you talking about?"....

dj

 

[sesmith]

Observing my wife's dog, how she would rather squat on the lawn then the area we built to manage her urine, I notice several brown patches where she has left her mark.

You may leave a trail of green flourishing plants or there may be a series of dead yellow over nitrogen treated plants along your walk way.

I do think it's a plant dependent thing. I've noticed the same thing on lawns. Suburban lawns seem to be sensitive to all kinds of things. A reason I never got into worrying about what grows in my yards. If it's green, it's good has always been my philosophy, and if it flowers, that's an added bonus. So maybe watering it down is a good thing. Anybody up for a discussion on trying to use a bidet bottle with a composting head?

 

[Bob J.]

FWIW, we have found coconut coir to be the best medium for us. I get in 10 lb bricks and only use the minimal a mount of water to break it up. I fill 1 gal plastic bags with chunks of it and add a quarter cup or so of water to the bags. Leave it in the sun for a day and break it apart by hand. Breaking up coir is kind of therapeutic...kind of like splitting firewood

I tried using coconut coir once towards the end of the season last year. Appreciate the info on preparing the product. Hopefully it will be a big improvement over other medium's we tried.
Speaking of urine disposal. If one was in a slip at a marina disposing of product in the rest room would be pretty logical.
Being on a mooring or on the hook most folks I know dispose of urine overboard on an outgoing tide.
Where our dog eliminates, greenest patches of grass in the yard

 

[AlastairLC]

Where our dog eliminates, greenest patches of grass in the yard

You have a very unusual dog.

 

[Rick486]

I'm sure this will start a real fight, but I really need to get this out. Back in the70's before the current movements started and gained strength, a local university (name protected but anyone familiar with the RI scene will know immediately which it is) performed a study on the impact of boating waste discharge on the water quality in Narragansett Bay. So their statistical assumption was that every boat registered in RI was on the bay simultaneously with 4 people aboard for 24 hrs and discharged human waste into the bay according to the time period. The result of the study was that the addition to the pollutant level in the bay from pleasure boats was not measureable and statistically insignificant. The real culprit in the bay was the municipal wastewater treatment plants in the upper sections of the bay. So, here we are almost 50 years later and boats are being built with sealed heads, and the wastewater treatment plants are essentially unchanged because the municipalities don't have or don't desire to spend the enormous amounts necessary. Beyond that, it is now illegal to pee in RI Sound or Block Island Sound within 3 miles of the shore.
Of course none of these laws are enforced by anyone, except the boat owners themselves. But there is an overall feel good over these laws.
But billions of someone's dollars have been spent to seal the head on Johnny's 24 ft center cockpit.
There's science, then there's politics, and where one ends and the other begins is sometimes difficult to identify.
Just sayin '

 

[dLj]

"The net of law is spread so wide, No sinner from its sweep may hide.
Its meshes are so fine and strong They take in every child of wrong.
O wondrous web of mystery!
Big fish alone escape from thee!“ — James Jeffrey Roche

Source: The net of law is spread so wide, No sinner from its sweep…

dj

 

[dLj]

Anybody up for a discussion on trying to use a bidet bottle with a composting head?

Sure, bring it on ...

Just got my OGO's - wow! I just ordered them! Preparations for spring sailing are coming on strong!

dj

 

[Alctel]

Thanks for the teardown pics of the Ogo - super helpful. Good to see everything seems very modular and easy to replace.

My old boat had a nature's head I installed and I loved it. I've removed the old marine head from my new boat and have been wondering what composting head to get, there are a lot more options nowadays!

I really like the cuddy but they are now not shipping till August - barring delays so that's out. I think I'm going to order the Ogo, I'm concerned slightly still about the electric agitator and if the solids bin may be a bit small, but it seems so much easier to empty than the NH, plus the pee light indicator is probably worth it's weight in gold. Take it from me, overflowing the pee jug is very unpleasant!

edit: ordered just now while the sale was still on. Looking forward to receiving it!

 

[TomY]

The un-install finally came to an end. The composting toilet install is simpler. First, installing the stack: I decided to keep bends and length to a minimum and vent straight up through the house. In the area of the mast, this old boat is thick.

I've left the 1 1/4" PVC 1/2" proud of the top. Covered with a small clam shell vent it should stay dry unless we sink.

The only other task was run 14/2 wire to the head. The vent stack will be hidden by the mainmast.

I found this!

 

[jon hansen]

did you seal up all those layers of ply in the hole? for my eye that won't keep that area very dry.

vent upwind of cockpit and hatches and dorades while on the hook. has my wondering.

vent right where you stand when working the halyards. it will
prolly get kick a lot.

i'm just thinking out loud as i wonder what i would do, being our vessels are so similar

 

[TomY]

I don't think there's as much odor from a composting vent as a holding tank which can have some powerful odors. The venting is more for drying. And the location isn't perfect but it seems the least traveled area for me. Who knows until you try it?

 

[dLj]

The C-Head has no vent and many claim it has no odors. Sandy, the guy that started C-Head says that when you mix poop with the composting material that it kills the smell. I'm not a believer yet.... I like the idea of a vent of some sort. There's a video of him talking about it on Sailing Anarchy - in fact - @TomY are your Chris Kringle on there?

dj

 

[jon hansen]

tom, i'm curious is all. up here on the lakes it is not what i will need. my 1974 mansfield vac-u-flush head is still working fine. keep tweeking it all these years, has kept it in working just fine. like all the old systems on this alden, i enjoy keeping is as it was. i would seal up the hole in the cabin top. just thinking 100 years out.

if our boats were automobiles, they would be Duesenbergs.

 

[jon hansen]

dlj, tom's boats name is 'Christmas'. you do the math