Switched to Electric

[Phil]

The OP said “12 Battle Born batteries.” Battle Born sells LiFePO4 batteries. Based on https://www.custommarineproducts.com/uploads/1/4/3/7/1437708/qms_lifepo4_manual.pdf (with similar words from other sources): “The round-trip energy efficiency of a LiFePO4 battery is over 90%. … A LiFePO4 battery will still achieve 90% efficiency under shallow discharge conditions.”

Yes, I have 12 Battle Born LiFePO4 12V, 100 Ahr batteries. I went that route because of battery performance and the fact that there is a Battle Born distributor in Hawaii where Kolibri will be as of late June / early July. Other options were LifeLine (no HI dealer) and ePropulsion (form factor wouldn't work with allowable space). When you have a kick ass boat you spend the money to keep it kick ass.

Regardless, quit wasting your time with jviss on the topic. His mind was made up long before he even looked at the facts of electric power for sailboats or my sailing situation. He can only see his situation and thinks everyone should conform to his way of thinking. That's how society stagnates.

This is the 2nd Chuck Paine boat I've owned. His smaller boats are definitely in line with my style of sailing and adventure seeking. I talked with Chuck via email and FB several times about the conversion and he loves it. He offered up some great guidance up front and along the way. I value his opinion much more than every other opinion on the planet.

 

[Phil]

That is
That is fantastic Phil! My older girls are not sailors but my youngest is now on the Canadian Optimist team and is going to the 2022 South American Championship which is an invitational. I won't be surprised if in a couple years she is outsailing me.
Maybe one day I will get to sail across an ocean with her.

Darcy, I'm sure she will be out sailing you in a few months if she's already going to the 2022 South American Championships. Kids get really good really fast. Especially when they love something. Enjoy the ride and do make that ocean crossing with your daughter happen. There are lots of ways to do so even if it's not in your own boat.

 

[dlochner]

The OP said “12 Battle Born batteries.” Battle Born sells LiFePO4 batteries. Based on https://www.custommarineproducts.com/uploads/1/4/3/7/1437708/qms_lifepo4_manual.pdf (with similar words from other sources): “The round-trip energy efficiency of a LiFePO4 battery is over 90%. … A LiFePO4 battery will still achieve 90% efficiency under shallow discharge conditions.”

Regarding the speed loss from regen - I’ve looked at my own speed comparisons between a freewheeling OEM fixed prop and a replacement Flex-o-fold. At low wind speeds the difference is definitely significant - over half a knot. But as wind speed increases the difference converges to basically nothing as the force to keep moving close to hull speed and the power available from the wind dwarf the excess drag from the prop. Obviously a regen turbine is more drag than a freewheeling prop, but conceptually I could imagine the same dynamic applying to make the speed loss minimal at close to hull speed.

This is the point. electric auxiliary propulsion can work for some applications, day sailing and long distance ocean sailing. It doesn’t work well for most of the sailing we do, weekend and short coastal cruising (except when sailing marina to marina).

A key component of electric auxiliary propulsion is accepting that sometimes you just have sail as if you were trolling. In the ocean setting out a troll line is a good way to supplement the food supply.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

Regarding the speed loss from regen - I’ve looked at my own speed comparisons between a freewheeling OEM fixed prop and a replacement Flex-o-fold. At low wind speeds the difference is definitely significant - over half a knot. But as wind speed increases the difference converges to basically nothing as the force to keep moving close to hull speed and the power available from the wind dwarf the excess drag from the prop. Obviously a regen turbine is more drag than a freewheeling prop, but conceptually I could imagine the same dynamic applying to make the speed loss minimal at close to hull speed.

- Also, in my experience a spinning folding prop is about as much drag as a fixed prop. In strong winds the drag doesn't make difference, and neither does sail trim. But in light air both are really important, and prop drag can mean a 10% or greater difference in boat speed. It gets even worse on cat with 2 props. Going electric isn't for everyone, but it certainly has its appeal. There are trade-offs and compromises in every decision.
I love @Phil 's installation, and have no doubt it suits his use-case quite well. Nice job!

 

[rgranger]

That has nothing to do with what I posted. It doesn't have to do with use patterns or anything else like that, it's basic physics.

Well the OP said he mostly uses his motor to go in and out of the slip.

 

[LakeOntario270]

Sailing Uma says their latest setup doesn't slow them down. Their system comes with a variable pitch prop that changes with conditions. I noticed a very loud hum from regeneration. I could never motor along at 3 knots.

 

[Hayden Watson]

As for speed loss, the first place I ever heard of the Watts & Sea system was on the Vendee Globe boats several races ago and they used them for all of the power generation for the full trip around the planet. Given that they were doing well over 20 knots most of the way, it didn't seem to hurt them much.

 

[Tom J]

I was really surprised at some of the negative comments in this thread concerning epropulsion. I guess some of us have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Reminds me of the story I read about the guys in a southern state in jacked up pickups that surrounded a Tesla at a charging station, intimidating the Tesla owner. Like the electric car is a threat to their way of life. Maybe it is.

 

[MikeHoncho]

I was really surprised at some of the negative comments in this thread concerning epropulsion. I guess some of us have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Reminds me of the story I read about the guys in a southern state in jacked up pickups that surrounded a Tesla at a charging station, intimidating the Tesla owner. Like the electric car is a threat to their way of life. Maybe it is.

No offense but if the 21st century dictates I can only motor at 4 knots for 20 miles then wait a week to recharge on solar then I’m good staying in the 20th century. It’s perfectly fine to motor in and out of the marina or if you are making passages ( although I’m not fully on board with this) but coastal cruising would be difficult unless you have unlimited time. The numbers the OP posted up were really terrible compared to a diesel.

 

[Tom J]

So offense but if the 21st century dictates I can only motor at 4 knots it’s for 20 miles then wait a week to recharge on solar then I’m good staying in the 20th century. It’s perfectly fine to motor in and out of the marina or if you are making passages ( although I’m not fully on board with this) but coastal cruising would be difficult unless you have unlimited time. The numbers the OP posted up were really terrible compared to a diesel.

No offense. I actually agree. I know that, as a cruiser, epropulsion is not for me at the present time. But I can see that it has benefits for those that fit within the limits of epropulsion.

 

[DArcy]

So offense but if the 21st century dictates I can only motor at 4 knots it’s for 20 miles then wait a week to recharge on solar then I’m good staying in the 20th century. It’s perfectly fine to motor in and out of the marina or if you are making passages ( although I’m not fully on board with this) but coastal cruising would be difficult unless you have unlimited time. The numbers the OP posted up were really terrible compared to a diesel.

This should solve all those problems, came out in 2015

 

[Phil]

No offense but if the 21st century dictates I can only motor at 4 knots for 20 miles then wait a week to recharge on solar then I’m good staying in the 20th century. It’s perfectly fine to motor in and out of the marina or if you are making passages ( although I’m not fully on board with this) but coastal cruising would be difficult unless you have unlimited time. The numbers the OP posted up were really terrible compared to a diesel.

It's fine if diesel doesn't work for you, but please quit making up numbers and ignoring parts of the electric motor system.

What I actually posted: Per the propulsion engineer's estimates 4 knots gets you 22 nm (132,000 ft). You claim 20 miles (105,600 ft) knocking down a conservative calculation by another 20%. I also stated that he admits a large amount of conservatism and based on my initial testing I will get 1.5 to 2.0 times the range he calculates at various boat speeds. Being conservative once again I'll use the lower end of my early estimates which results in a range of 33 nm (or 37.98 miles). Sure that's probably still not enough range for you. Fair enough.

On to charging...1 week to recharge via solar? Maybe in the gloomy state of Washington that is true. Based on observations of my house solar panels and scaling to a ~340 W system (average of the two I'm looking at) it takes just shy of 6 days to generate 14.4KWhr of solar..enough to go from 0% to 100% state of charge (ignoring losses of course). But that also ignores the fact that you are generating charge via while you motor and sail. You would be foolish to drain the batteries to 0% in the first place.

Two other things that you are ignoring on the charge front - regenerative charging which has been discussed in detail by others. I've stayed out of that discussion for the most part because I haven't done any real world testing with the regen capabilities of my system. I'll post results when I have them. The other is a gas or diesel powered generator. You can easily extend your range by getting a Honda portable generator that can be easily removed from the boat when you don't need it or install a full time generator if you have the space. I won't be going either route because getting rid of the stench is part of the reason I went electric.

Yeah, I get it. Electric doesn't work for everyone. Diesel doesn't work for everyone either. Diesel motors need to be run regularly. Reliability quickly drops off if you just use them to get in & out of the marina. They also require significantly more maintenance, smell horrible, etc. The MD7A I removed only had ~950 hrs on it. Super low for a 1981 motor. I spoke with both previous owners and they barely used the motor as well. They both said reliability was hit and miss as a result. Same was true during my usage. Given how and where I sail dropping $22K on a new Volvo would have been a very bad choice. Dropping $22K on a motor that more than meets my usage requirements while remaining super reliable and stench free was a no brainer.

 

[dlochner]

A few years ago Nigel Calder wrote a really informative article in Professional Boatbuilder on Solar. Link is below.

He suggests that the daily output for onboard solar installations will be about 3 times the nominal capacity. A 300 watt system could be expected to provide about 900 watt hours per day. There are many factors that determine actual out put include panel quality, poor quality panels will generate less. His estimate is consistent with my experience. The best have I done is 1100 watt-hours in August and about 600 watt hours in mid January in Florida. I have 2 150 watt Solara panels.

Using Calder's formula, the 340 watt panels should generate about 1020 watt hours a day.

Earlier this spring I saw a Solana 38 (?) that is all electric. Sailing Uma had reviewed one on their channel. Just about every flat surface was covered by a solar panel to generate sufficient engird to power the boat.

Advances in Onboard Solar - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine

Advances in onboard marine solar technology improved efficiency and lowered the cost. But they also introduced more complexity.

www.proboat.com

 

[Phil]

Using Calder's formula, the 340 watt panels should generate about 1020 watt hours a day.

Advances in Onboard Solar - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine

Advances in onboard marine solar technology improved efficiency and lowered the cost. But they also introduced more complexity.

www.proboat.com

I will read the article later today when I have time, but I'm curious if Calder's formula is specific to his latitude and local climate. My fairly new 12.8 KW home solar panel system generated 61.1 KWhr of electricity yesterday (January 29). In mid summer it typically generates > 90 KWhr. Those numbers are obviously lower on cloudy and rainy days. Worst I've seen when it rained all day for 3 days straight was ~14 KWhr. My house is on the North Shore of Oahu.

 

[MikeHoncho]

It's fine if diesel doesn't work for you, but please quit making up numbers and ignoring parts of the electric motor system.

What I actually posted: Per the propulsion engineer's estimates 4 knots gets you 22 nm (132,000 ft). You claim 20 miles (105,600 ft) knocking down a conservative calculation by another 20%. I also stated that he admits a large amount of conservatism and based on my initial testing I will get 1.5 to 2.0 times the range he calculates at various boat speeds. Being conservative once again I'll use the lower end of my early estimates which results in a range of 33 nm (or 37.98 miles). Sure that's probably still not enough range for you. Fair enough.

On to charging...1 week to recharge via solar? Maybe in the gloomy state of Washington that is true. Based on observations of my house solar panels and scaling to a ~340 W system (average of the two I'm looking at) it takes just shy of 6 days to generate 14.4KWhr of solar..enough to go from 0% to 100% state of charge (ignoring losses of course). But that also ignores the fact that you are generating charge via while you motor and sail. You would be foolish to drain the batteries to 0% in the first place.

Two other things that you are ignoring on the charge front - regenerative charging which has been discussed in detail by others. I've stayed out of that discussion for the most part because I haven't done any real world testing with the regen capabilities of my system. I'll post results when I have them. The other is a gas or diesel powered generator. You can easily extend your range by getting a Honda portable generator that can be easily removed from the boat when you don't need it or install a full time generator if you have the space. I won't be going either route because getting rid of the stench is part of the reason I went electric.

Yeah, I get it. Electric doesn't work for everyone. Diesel doesn't work for everyone either. Diesel motors need to be run regularly. Reliability quickly drops off if you just use them to get in & out of the marina. They also require significantly more maintenance, smell horrible, etc. The MD7A I removed only had ~950 hrs on it. Super low for a 1981 motor. I spoke with both previous owners and they barely used the motor as well. They both said reliability was hit and miss as a result. Same was true during my usage. Given how and where I sail dropping $22K on a new Volvo would have been a very bad choice. Dropping $22K on a motor that more than meets my usage requirements while remaining super reliable and stench free was a no brainer.

Your absolutely right. I recklessly mis-quoted you and nocked off 20% which equates to 2 nautical miles?……..is this where I say “you just made me point?” Anyone only upgrades and buys stuff that meets their needs not for forum readers. Sounds like this fits your need perfectly. This would not be a route I would be going given the upfront cost, lack of performance and extended recharge time when on multiple day trips in my area with variable winds during the summer months and would eliminate any trips during the winter all comparative to my Yanmar.

 

[MikeHoncho]

This should solve all those problems, came out in 2015

What could possibly go wrong (coming from a 22yr hazmat guy)?

 

[MikeHoncho]

No offense. I actually agree. I know that, as a cruiser, epropulsion is not for me at the present time. But I can see that it has benefits for those that fit within the limits of epropulsion.

I think it needs to be said that having a current day system not work for me or you doesn’t mean it never will. Just not now with current technology. Battery science has come along way enabling these topics to be possible. At this point (for coastal cruising) you have to add a unrealistic amount of batteries or the charging technology is up for a significant advancement to compliment the recent advances in batteries.

 

[dlochner]

I will read the article later today when I have time, but I'm curious if Calder's formula is specific to his latitude and local climate. My fairly new 12.8 KW home solar panel system generated 61.1 KWhr of electricity yesterday (January 29). In mid summer it typically generates > 90 KWhr. Those numbers are obviously lower on cloudy and rainy days. Worst I've seen when it rained all day for 3 days straight was ~14 KWhr. My house is on the North Shore of Oahu.

It is a "rule of thumb" and accounts for the poor angles, partial shading and other problems peculiar to solar on bolts. Land based installations can be optimized for sun angle, especially the further south as the seasonal variation on sun angle is smaller.

On a several days last summer I made about 4x the nominal output (300 watts). Yesterday, a bright sunny day in Vero Beach Fl, I made 950 watt hours, which is a shade over 3x nominal.

 

[Tom J]

I think it needs to be said that having a current day system not work for me or you doesn’t mean it never will. Just not now with current technology. Battery science has come along way enabling these topics to be possible. At this point (for coastal cruising) you have to add a unrealistic amount of batteries or the charging technology is up for a significant advancement to compliment the recent advances in batteries.

Very true. I would like very much to have an electric drive on my sailboat. As Phil mentioned, it would be great to get rid of the noise and stink of the diesel. I do have a Torqeedo on my dingy, and it is a wonderful thing. I no longer store gasoline in the cockpit of my sailboat, and don't have to pour gas into an outboard bouncing around behind the boat. I motor around the anchorage in silence, conversing easily with my passengers. I get several days use on a single charge, then recharge off my sailboat's solar panels. It has the same power as my old 3hp Mercury. Yes, the Torqeedo is expensive, but, for me it is worth it.
For now, I am stuck with my diesel. If I had to repower, I would seriously consider epropulsion. Unfortunately, my Universal is in excellent condition, and I am too old to rip it out and build my own system.

 

[Phil]

Your absolutely right. I recklessly mis-quoted you and nocked off 20% which equates to 2 nautical miles?……..is this where I say “you just made me point?” Anyone only upgrades and buys stuff that meets their needs not for forum readers. Sounds like this fits your need perfectly. This would not be a route I would be going given the upfront cost, lack of performance and extended recharge time when on multiple day trips in my area with variable winds during the summer months and would eliminate any trips during the winter all comparative to my Yanmar.

Yep...if I lived in the Pacific NW I would not have gone electric. Cost between electric and a new Volvo was a wash at ~$22K. The Yanmar quote I got was ~$28K and an earliest install date of August 2022. The choice for my needs, location, style of sailing, and future plans was an easy one to make.