Rich,
Thanks for the input. You are not the first person to tell me about the hooks - unhooking. I think safer to use an attachment that can't fall off. Have you ever tried tying a line to the chain?
dj
Chain snubbers
- Thread starter dLj
- Start date
Thanks for the input. You are not the first person to tell me about the hooks - unhooking. I think safer to use an attachment that can't fall off. Have you ever tried tying a line to the chain?
dj
On our other boat, when I've used all chain on it, I've used a single line snubber and secured it to the chain with a modified rolling hitch. Always worked fine for us. I do prefer the Mantus hook, though. Generally I don't use all chain on that boat and have only 25' of chain on it and the rest nylon, but when up in Maine we used all chain for most of the anchorages.
I've always used one exactly as described by Rich Stidger above. Of course, equipment sizes vary with the size of the boat. I haven't found anything, at any price, that works better than a real, ordinary, inexpensive chain hook.
After all, that's exactly what they were designed for and millions on wharves around the world trust their lives to them every day.
The bridle seems superfluous, as I think it is only of real use if one has a bobstay. There's no need for redundacy as the chain is the backup for the snub breaking. I've always figured that I'd be jarred awake if our 1" snub broke, which would mean something was terribly amiss on deck.
Personally, after having a number of late night re-anchoring events early on in my career, I wouldn't attach anything to my chain that takes more than a second or two to undo. I do not know who came up with the idea of tying a snub to their chain, but they certainly weren't the brightest bulb in the string.
After all, that's exactly what they were designed for and millions on wharves around the world trust their lives to them every day.
The bridle seems superfluous, as I think it is only of real use if one has a bobstay. There's no need for redundacy as the chain is the backup for the snub breaking. I've always figured that I'd be jarred awake if our 1" snub broke, which would mean something was terribly amiss on deck.
Personally, after having a number of late night re-anchoring events early on in my career, I wouldn't attach anything to my chain that takes more than a second or two to undo. I do not know who came up with the idea of tying a snub to their chain, but they certainly weren't the brightest bulb in the string.
For those that use the Mantus pendant or other knot style arrangement, how easy is that to undo in a hurry? I like the idea to keep the anchor tension off the windlass, but taking it off to pull the rode through the gypsy looks challenging to me.
I do have a bobstay on my new boat, although I'm not sure it would matter here as the chain roller is forward of it. Certainly if my anchor dropped aft of it, I'd have to go to a bridal.
I'm not sure I'd classify John Harries as 'not the brightest bulb in the string". That's where I first read of tying the snubber on.
Do you use a chain brake? I've seen those and find they may be an interesting addition. How do you secure your chain beyond having it on the windlass?
Like I said, I've not a lot of experience using all chain rode, but I'm learning....
dj
Excellent question.
Explain more about why you want to remove it in a hurry? What are the circumstances and what are you trying to accomplish?
dj
dLj, that wasn't the point of my post, although I understand how you could have misinterpreted it that way.
All I said my friend experienced was:
this works perfectly in 25 to 30 feet of water - you let all the chain out and you tie off nylon at the preferred scope and don't bother with snubbers and chain hooks and all that stuff...)
THAT part was the only point I was making: avoid the snubbers that way as a choice.
Stu,
Ah, yeah, sorry. It's the ad nauseum rants I've heard so often that clouded my judgement... I get your point. The difficulty is I don't see how you do that while using all chain rode...
dj
Ah, now I see your question. He has 100 or 150 feet of chain, deploys all of it and then the chain is connected to longer stowed rode in his anchor locker, so just the last (or first, if you will) few feet of already connected ROPE rode is let out and used as the snubber. He found it simpler. He has lots of rope rode for deeper anchorages, which is why he first said: "this works perfectly in 25 to 30 feet of water " 150 feet of chain in 25 feet is 6:1.
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Right, so really he's running the chain/rope rode combination and in shallow water he has enough chain to be using primarily chain. This is a tried and true system. I've always liked it, I know how to run it well.... well.... well enough, we can all learn more about anchoring... But I'm looking to eventually sail to deep anchorages where I'll be deploying a lot of chain. At least that's the current hope/plan. Time will only tell if that comes to fruition.
So in the interim, I'm looking to see how folks deal/like/etc the all chain rode anchoring. That way I have a better chance to actually realize that hope/plan.... If you get my drift...
dj
Ah, got it. Now, you have to explain to me what "a cow (aka luggage tag) hitch" is - I've never even heard this term before...
dj
p.s. I just googled cow hitch - I've used that lot's of times, never knew what it was called. NOW that's a slick trick!
Now, perhaps, we can think outside the box of either or in terms of what you have defined as "Systems," i.e. (1) all chain with snubbers, vs. (2) mixed chain and rope rode. What Steve suggested was and is all chain with some rope rode at the end instead of a SEPARATE snubber.
You are quite correct that this is based on a certain range of water depths based on the length of chain one has.
You also, however, earlier said:
So let's try this completely different way of looking at what you do have:
Primary is for deeper anchorages. Secondary is for shallower anchorages.
Primary has 200 feet of chain. Secondary has 100 feet of chain. Doing any number of ratios, you can work out the depths applicable. And the range of depths can easily be extremely widened by simply using more (length) of the rope end snubber!
The chain is already out and down. You just simply have a bit longer snubber. Could it be that you could use Steve's idea for both?
Since you didn't say what the differences between your primary and secondary anchors themselves are, so I can't comment on that.
But if we can assume for the moment that each of your individual anchors (i.e., primary and secondary) are adequate to the task (i.e., wind speed), then you could simply assign them this way, instead of primary and secondary, as deep water and shallower water anchor systems. Each would have the correct amount of chain for AN ALL CHAIN ANCHOR SYSTEM, with only the last dozen or so feet of the rope rode AS THE SNUBBER, and as Steve says: "...and don't bother with [separate] snubbers and chain hooks and all that stuff... "
I know and have read extensively on anchoring systems and snubbers, both in personal experience and on cruisersforum, the guys who travel a lot of different places and have extensive anchoring experience, like thinwater here.
I've always felt that anything "extra" in terms of connections and material has a potential for not only extra work but potentially for extra complexity. I singlehand almost all the time and learned this eons ago. If you choose NOT a different anchoring system, but rather a different way to assign your two all chain rodes that just happen to have rope attached at the inboard end of BOTH that you use as snubbers WITHOUT adding anything extra, it could be much simpler in the long run.
I was always taut to avoid bridals.
Good luck, nice boat you have.
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No I haven't tried tying a line to the chain. But I don't think I ever would do that for two reasons-
First, it looks cumbersome and time consuming.
Second, The function of the snubber is to absorb shock, and in a blow, I would be concerned about the line slipping on the chain or somehow disconnecting. We all argue (or discuss) the merits of having 3900# chain with shackle strength to match, and a snubber of the appropriate size to match the other strengths, and now there is the suggestion to tie the snubber line to the chain. I'm trying to think of a knot that would be appropriate to keep the overall strength of the anchoring system......
As for my hook dropping off the chain, it only happens in calm conditions, so unless the weather changes dramatically, I think I am good.
Mostly I’d be worried about if the anchor were dragging at night in a passing storm. Trying to undo both the shackle to the snubber and the knot on the rode while the bow is bouncing in the dark doesn’t sound like my idea of fun. I could think of other times where a quick getaway might be good, like in a crowded anchorage if someone well upwind is dragging and starting a domino effect. Mantus certainly charges plenty for that pendant and at least some people seem to like the idea, so I’m just wondering if I’m missing something.
Stu,Now, perhaps, we can think outside the box of either or in terms of what you have defined as "Systems," i.e. (1) all chain with snubbers, vs. (2) mixed chain and rope rode. What Steve suggested was and is all chain with some rope rode at the end instead of a SEPARATE snubber.
You are quite correct that this is based on a certain range of water depths based on the length of chain one has.
You also, however, earlier said:
So let's try this completely different way of looking at what you do have:
Primary is for deeper anchorages. Secondary is for shallower anchorages.
Primary has 200 feet of chain. Secondary has 100 feet of chain. Doing any number of ratios, you can work out the depths applicable. And the range of depths can easily be extremely widened by simply using more (length) of the rope end snubber!
Could it be that you could use Steve's idea for both?
Since you didn't say what the differences between your primary and secondary anchors themselves are, so I can't comment on that.
But if we can assume for the moment that each of your individual anchors (i.e., primary and secondary) are adequate to the task (i.e., wind speed), then you could simply assign them this way, instead of primary and secondary, as deep water and shallower water anchor systems. Each would have the correct amount of chain for AN ALL CHAIN ANCHOR SYSTEM, with only the last dozen or so feet of the rope rode AS THE SNUBBER, and as Steve says: "...and don't bother with [separate] snubbers and chain hooks and all that stuff... "
I know and have read extensively on anchoring systems and snubbers, both in personal experience and on cruisersforum, the guys who travel a lot of different places and have extensive anchoring experience, like thinwater here.
I've always felt that anything "extra" in terms of connections and material has a potential for not only extra work but potentially for extra complexity. I singlehand almost all the time and learned this eons ago. If you choose NOT a different anchoring system, but rather a different way to assign your two all chain rodes that just happen to have rope attached at the inboard end of BOTH that you use as snubbers WITHOUT adding anything extra, it could be much simpler in the long run.
I was always taut to avoid bridals.
Good luck, nice boat you have.
Totally love the idea of out of the box thinking. Primary is a 120 spade, secondary is a Fortress (don't recall the size, decent size). The fortress has the chain/rope rode. I'll know soon enough how many feet of chain it does have, but I don't actually know yet, I have to pull it out and measure. I seem to recall it's between 50 and 100 feet of chain and about 200 feet of nylon rode. Primary has 300 feet of all chain.
There are two anchor lockers, the forward locker for the Fortress and the aft locker for the Spade rode. The windlass is a horizontal windlass and feeds the chain very nicely into the aft chain locker. The Fortress side would require more work to stow, I haven't actually used it yet at all. But it certainly would not feed as nicely into the forward locker anywhere as neatly as the chain feeds into the aft locker for the spade. I'll have to look into that.
I do worry about weight, adding in enough line into the chain rode (Spade) to make it sensible would be on top of the 300 feet of chain, which is not trivial.
The horizontal windlass makes adding nylon rode to the spade a complication as that is the chain gypsy side, if I had to pull nylon rode I'd have to cross over the the other side of the windlass and then hand feed the line into the aft locker.
I'm replacing the entire primary anchoring system, all new chain, new shackles, new spade anchor. Boat originally came with a CQR there. I really don't trust them. I've used them for too many years and the expression "set and pray" rather than "set and stay" come to mind...
dj
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So if you are dragging at night, are you raising the anchor or setting out more scope to stop the dragging? I can certainly see if you are pulling the anchor how you'd not be happy, but wouldn't you rather be adding more scope?
I'm not sure in the crowded anchorage, if time's of the essence, I might put a float on the end of the anchor line and drop everything in the water to come back for it later. If I have the time, I certainly want to pull the anchor in and for sure, I'd want to be able to stow everything in a hurry. In that case, with a tied snubber, I'd want to know ahead of time if it just passed tied right into my locker. So that means the knot needs to be such that it enters the chain hawser into the locker. I think that might be a problem, but for sure with hardware even less likely. That certainly speaks for the hook, darned easy to pull off and keep bringing the whole thing in...
By the way, there is no shackle on a tied snubber. Unless you are using the system that dlochner is talking about....
No matter, your scenarios must be thought of ahead of time and practiced to see how best to handle them.
dj
@dLj, one of the more interesting anecdotes I picked up about this relatively huge amount of chain, from cruisersforum, is this: figure 300 feet of chain could be used in 60 feet of water at at 5:1 ratio. You have to ask yourself this critical question: "Will I be normally anchoring in 60 feet of water?"
If not, the anecdote went on to importantly note, you WILL end up with most of that heavy chain doing absolutely NOTHING but sitting in your anchor locker. And also require a separate snubber system.
They also point out that deeper anchorages don't always need all chain, and suggest reading Peter Smith's material on the Rocna website.
I'm a perfect example: When I lived in San Francisco I'd always be able to anchor in 20 feet of water, sometimes less, never more because of where I went with my boat and what the depth of the bottoms where you could anchor were. Simple geography.
Then I moved here to Canada. If I was going to circumnavigate Vancouver Island, I'd be exposing myself to deeper anchorages. But I'm not going to do that. I have deliberately, but happily, limited my cruising to the Gulf Islands, where I can find 20 foot anchorages all over.
The depths dictate my length of chain. Simple.
Please, think again about your choices, regardless of what snubber system you choose.
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