Equalizing batteries

[dLj]

Now follow me, using that graphic, which is correct, and I will tell you the VOLT and Amps and some time factor too.

1) Voltage went immediatly to the max of 15.9 VDC and flat lined.
2) Current draw , just like the graphic, as the intense Reversing Chemistry started to "kick the plates awake" [main reason to do this]

Your explanation has things I don't understand.

This graphic is NOT showing a flat lined voltage.

Number 2 problem - you can't flat line a battery that is deeply discharged with voltage. The power supply can't do it. The voltage will increase over time as the battery can accept charge. If you did try to push as much amperage into that battery to flat line at 15.0 vlts you'd fry your battery from over temperature.

So explain to me, an ignorant layman - how the front part of that graph showing oscillating voltage and current, is represented by your statement of 15.8V flat lined.

dj

 

[JamesG161]

PS: @Head Sail mine does not "desulfer" bad term, even if it is common.

I updated my post, later. You @dLj were too quick.

I will not comment on that process, at all, since there was a disagreement on the terms and chemistry , in another SBO post.
Sorry...

Jim...

 

[dLj]

@Head Sail There's a web site that's pretty good about batteries, charging, types etc.

BU-403: Charging Lead Acid

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

It's a bit weak, from my perspective, on equalization. But it does reference that first part of the graph you posted in the charging section:

"Much has been said about pulse charging of lead acid batteries to reduce sulfation. The results are inconclusive and manufacturers as well as service technicians are divided on the benefit. If sulfation could be measured and the right amount of pulsing applied, then the remedy could be beneficial; however giving a cure without knowing the underlying side effects can be harmful to the battery."

As I have yet to find any really concrete data on all the various unknowns on sulfation, equalization, when to start, when to stop, how to measure, I'm not going to go down the road of those pulse chargers. As I said previously, I tried it a number of years ago and could not get it to work. So I'm in the camp of the skeptics.

If you look through the manual that @JamesG161 posted, the equalization process on that charger is a manual process and is timed - it goes a maximum of 8 hours. I prefer my method, but then that also requires a lot more work and owning more than one charger/power supply.

As far as I'm aware, there is not a charger on the market today that has a routine that is "intelligent" when it comes to equalization, neither marine nor automotive. It seems to me all manufacturers have their own why of putting equalization into their literature/products. You'll have to decide for yourself if the pulse charging is what you want or not. If I had to stick to one charger that did it all, I'd prefer the charger that @JamesG161 posted. But that's your decision.

dj

 

[JamesG161]

As I have yet to find any really concrete data on all the various unknowns on sulfation, equalization

That was why I did not discuss the chemistry/energy in my post #22.
Sulfation is complex chemistry [reactions] plus crystallization [Stable energy State]. This correct info is from Battery University linked above by @dLj

"What is sulfation? During use, small sulfate crystals form, but these are normal and are not harmful. During prolonged charge deprivation, however, the amorphous lead sulfate converts to a stable crystalline and deposits on the negative plates. This leads to the development of large crystals that reduce the battery’s active material, which is responsible for the performance."

Battery's Active Materials.... Sulfuric Acid and Lead.

Due to damage from Hurricane Zeta, I had to replace my Freedom 20... to this newest Inverter/Charger

Freedom SW 2012 100 Amps DC.

This has Ethernet controls and New Interface and much more adjustable to fit most Lead/Acid batteries to equalize.

From that manual's Graphics...

And the instructions...


I can now change all charging parameters as my House Batteries age too.
This new ICG should extend my 2- House Batteries life. [See my post #20 for reasons]

Jim...

 

[dLj]

@JamesG161 That sure looks like a darned nice charging system..

dj

 

[DayDreamer41]

@dLj how many amp output is your programmable power supply capable of?

 

[dLj]

@dLj how many amp output is your programmable power supply capable of?

I have several, but the one I use most on boat batteries has a max output of 3 amps.

dj

 

[DayDreamer41]

I have several, but the one I use most on boat batteries has a max output of 3 amps.

dj

Interesting, I would have thought that in order to equalize one would need more (3) amps? Do you equalize each battery individually? That would be a time consuming endevour given I have 6 x T105's in series parallel.

 

[dLj]

The thing we haven't even scratched the surface of here is the actual DC power output quality. I have no idea if or how important those things are, but the power supplies I'm using are research grade power supplies. What does that mean? It means when I set my output to say 16.0 volts, the accuracy of that output is in the mV range. Also the ripple and noise runs way down there also even under load changes. I'd like to put an oscilloscope on one of these boat power supplies and see how they run....

dj

 

[JamesG161]

That sure looks like a darned nice charging system..[ ]

It is the best, IMHO.
Plus on this unit, I connected the Battery temperature Monitor, for feed back, to the Freedom SW for near optimum maintenance Charging.
What the Feed Back does...

1) Uses minimum Amps pull
2) Holds the Batteries near perfect Float charge, while at Berth on shore power.

Thus minimum Electrolyte Loss and Hydrogen production.
______

I'm using are research grade power supplies

The SW on my charger's name means perfect Sine Wave. That 120 VAC has to be perfectly Rectified for Pure Flat DC Voltage.
The Amps flow will match the DC Volts.

Remember Equalization take TWO matched Batteries ... to Tango.

Jim...

 

[dLj]

Interesting, I would have thought that in order to equalize one would need more (3) amps? Do you equalize each battery individually? That would be a time consuming endevour given I have 6 x T105's in series parallel.

Yes, I do my batteries separately and yes it is very time consuming. But I only do it once or twice a year unless I run my batteries down too low. Then I'll run an equalization step as soon as possible preferably within 24 to 48 hours of dropping down too low (my own internally set threshold).

There is a formula in the IEEE standard that talks about maximum amperage and battery size. I don't recall it off the top of my head, but the 3 amps is big for a typical car sized battery, and on the small size for the typical boat sized battery. However, amperage really should be controlled by temperature. As I don't have a good method to control by temperature, I just make sure I don't over-do the amps. When working with a new to me battery, I will touch the battery frequently, especially in the beginning stages to make sure that there is no temperature change. I've often thought to get some thermocouples set up and running along with this, but I've enough crap laying around...

dj

 

[dLj]

Plus on this unit, I connected the Battery temperature Monitor, for feed back, to the Freedom SW for near optimum maintenance Charging.
What the Feed Back does...

That is the best way to do it!!!!!
That way you can run as many amps as the battery can handle without heating up. I'd be interested in seeing the output of that system put on an oscilloscope and tracked as it functions. That would give an excellent idea of required accuracy, ripple and all that...

dj

p.s. I bet that's not a cheap system...

 

[JamesG161]

p.s. I bet that's not a cheap system...

Well for me, no cost. Insurance will cover it.

So far the total cost to remove old, install new one, add newest Xanbus control unit, run new Temp monitor, pull new ethernet cable, and do electric check out.
≈$1800 [ should have been ≈$2600 ]
But I had to look around for best prices too.
I am trying to minimize cost for Progressive Insurance too.

You can follow that install and pictures on this link.
Repairing boat after Hurricane Zeta
Maybe I will equalize my batteries too.
Jim...

PS: Oscilloscopes are good for VAC work.

 

[dLj]

Holy cow! I just read that whole thread. What an ordeal!

Price is about what I expected, for that power supply, well worth the cost...

Up to you, but I always do a complete equalization cycle to start a season, and when I get new battery....

Now, this shows my ignorance, how else do you look at ripple on a DC power supply if not using an oscilloscope?

dj

 

[sea_casper]

The SW on my charger's name means perfect Sine Wave. That 120 VAC has to be perfectly Rectified for Pure Flat DC Voltage.
The Amps flow will match the DC Volts.

Jim...

The SW refers to the inverter function which generates a pure sine wave 120 vac, off of battery power, the inverter does not run when charging, and the charger does not run off the inverter. The charging function runs off either an on board ac genset or shore power, the rectification of which is filtered and actively regulated according to the active charge mode, i.e. bulk, adsorption, float.The charger can tolerate significant sine wave distortion on the input ac. The current flow will vary according to charger mode and battery state of charge.

 

[JamesG161]

Up to you, but I always do a complete equalization cycle to start a season,

Hopefully back in water in June, just in time for 2021 Hurricane season.

Ok will Equalize when back in the water.
________

The SW refers to the inverter function which generates a pure sine wave 120 vac

But Shore power and Genset input power is also filtered, peak check, phase checked, Auto- Transferred, and can Auto Start a Genset to maintain Power on your boat.
_________

how else do you look at ripple on a DC power supply if not using an oscilloscope?

You scope will need very good Precision to see rippled DC.
My new ICG has it's DC filtered too.

Jim...

PS: No need to invert if Genset or shore power connected.