Rodkicker Repair

[Bill19233]

Has anyone had the cable pull out of the inside of their Selden Rodkicker boom vang? Having trouble finding technical drawings or part numbers online, I can only find just the catalog drawing.

How did it break? One too many hard jibes. At 1:04 in this video.

Two weeks to the next race, need to repair or replace. Looked at prices, really don't want to have to replace it.

 

[Jackdaw]

Well ouch!

I feel for you; that arch mounted traveler makes it impossible to ‘guide’ the main sheet on gybes, meaning you are always going to slam it. And the vang take the brunt of that. The quick McGyver would have been to just use a length of cordage to secure the boom at its max extended length.... I’m guessing that you do not play it much as an active sail control.

 

[JRacer]

Don't think you will have to replace. All those components are replaceable parts. Should be able to drill out the rivets holding the end cap in place and disassemble, same procedure as when you install a different shock. IIRC, that cable is swedged on a loop inside the tube. May be that the swedge fitting just pulled apart. Either that or the "teeth" that loop hooks to got broken off. Selden only works through dealers so you have to find a rigger that can provide support. Stix N Rign perhaps? I may have some documents that explode the parts, I'll look.

 

[JRacer]

Found it. Attached.

 

[Bill19233]

Found it. Attached.

Perfect, thanks JRacer. Either the cable gave way or the tab on the casting/fitting broke. But, there is some deformation on the end of the extrusion I'll have to cut off. I'll remove the vang off the boat today or tomorrow and take it apart and post photos.

I’m guessing that you do not play it much as an active sail control.

No we don't play it much. The big main and long boom make it really difficult to trim or ease the vang without luffing or trimming the mainsheet to take tension off it. I thought about increasing the purchase, but it's already 8:1 with the cable on the rodkicker. Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't use a nylon vang line to take some of the shock load from unplanned jibes. We usually bring the mainsheet in almost all the way before jibing, but jibes happen.
The jibe that broke the vang wasn't that extreme. I didn't let the main trimmer bring it in all the way before I turned across the wind, but I was watching traffic and the start line.

 

[Bill19233]

Tab on the bottom end fitting broke off and the extrusion deformed when the cable pulled by. New fitting unavailable on line, ordered from a local rigging company, about $60. I need to cut about an inch and a half off the end and drill new rivet holes. I may get a gas strut for it while I'm working on it, is it worth having the strut in the vang for $150 more?

 

[JRacer]

Ouch. That's what I was expecting.

Mine is the Rodkicker 10 and was ordered with the "normal" spring (shock) P/N (058-36-11). However, after installing it and then putting the main on, flaked on the boom, the spring was not sufficient to hold up the weight of the boom plus sail (too soft - compressed too much, bottomed out). It was fine when the sail was raised. So, I replaced the "normal" spring P/N 308-070 with the "Hard" spring P/N 307-071 and adjusted the attachment point on the boom so that it would raise up a bit and hold the boom up with the sail down. Depending on the weight of your boom and sail, you may want to go with the hard or extra hard spring.

Link to springs: http://www.seldenmast.com/en/products/rigid_vangs_-_rodkickers/spare_gas_springs/__lang_en.html

Link to Rodkicker part numbers/models: http://www.seldenmast.com/en/products/rigid_vangs_-_rodkickers/rodkicker_rigid_vang.html

 

[Bill19233]

Vang is back on. I couldn't add a gas strut or spring, there's no lower end plug in the extrusion. I did add a cascade block, so it's 16:1 now and I changed the line on the fiddle blocks to nylon to absorb some of the shock from jibes. If it stretches too much, I'll change it back. I didn't get the cable shortened enough to put the fiddles on the loop on the vang lower end, so it's on the mast base for Saturday's race until I get good measurements and get it right. And when I get the cascade line length figured right, I'll try to splice a becket loop in each end. Heard that's really difficult if not almost impossible in a double braid less than 6' long.
We've got a veteran crewing with us Saturday who just did the Chicago - Mackinac aboard the Farr 53 "Warrior". Looking forward to hearing all about it.

 

[JRacer]

Good to see. Hmm, that's odd that you could not adds the "spring", (gas shock).
I have the same issue with cable length and need to shorten it, just haven't taken the time/effort to tear it apart to do that. My vang goes block to block before it should. My plan is jut to shorten the wire cable so the block attached to it is higher up. I too have it set up with the cascade. Chicago -Mac is a great race. Have done that before.

 

[Jumpstart]

You guys are making me happy I have a Vangmaster. Pricey piece of kit but incredibly well built and still supported. No springs or cylinder just air adjustment. I pump mine up to about 130psi and you need to use the block and tackle to get the boom down. Or just let some air out using the valve. Infinitely adjustable. http://vangmaster.com/features.html

 

[Bill19233]

16:1 purchase on the vang is great. We were able to easily adjust it under load during the race on Saturday.

 

[Bill19233]

After the last race, I took the vang apart again to get the cable shortened, found the wire sheave in pretty rough shape. Nobody can find one, local rigger says they can machine one from delrin for about $30. Probably cheaper than if I did find the Selden part.
Check the sheave in your vang!

 

[JRacer]

Wow, that thing has had some load on it! Assume the rigger contacted Selden in SC. Surely they have a replacement part. Or, have you looked for an aluminum replacement? Would think some mfgr has a replacement that would fit the size specs.

Makes me wonder whether the kicker you have is undersized for the loads involved.

Thanks for the post and heads up.
Fitz

 

[jeff356]

Looks like you keep the vang sheet handling up at the vang and mast.

When your main sail and main sheet tight is the vang bottomed out or do you still have some adjustment? Do you mainly sail with the vang sheet released, except for down wind?

I inverted the cable/blocks and ran the vang sheet to a block at the mast plate and back thru a clutch to the cockpit so I don't need to go forward to adjust. Was also looking to get a gas cartridge as I don't think mine has one.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Bill19233]

Looks like you keep the vang sheet handling up at the vang and mast.

When your main sail and main sheet tight is the vang bottomed out or do you still have some adjustment? Do you mainly sail with the vang sheet released, except for down wind?

I inverted the cable/blocks and ran the vang sheet to a block at the mast plate and back thru a clutch to the cockpit so I don't need to go forward to adjust. Was also looking to get a gas cartridge as I don't think mine has one.

Thanks,
Jeff

Yes, we trim the vang from the mast base for now. I have been setting the twist with the vang and using the sheet for angle of attack, upwind and down, fine tuning upwind with the traveler. I will get a better photo that shows the whole vang in use, we have a practice race on Saturday.
One more thing to do, get a 10" cable made with loops on both ends so the block with the clam cleat is up off the deck. Using a piece of rope right now. I would like to run it to the cockpit someday, the outhaul, topping lift, and cunningham are at the mast base, too.
I think I've got it set up right, plenty of adjustment room between the blocks, even fully trimmed. 16:1 is amazing how easy it is to adjust under load, even with the 16' boom on my boat. Last few times out, I have been adjusting it way too much just because I can now! And I did use a nylon line for the 4:1 between the fiddles to absorb some shock from jibes and I think that's going to work out nicely.

 

[Bill19233]

Vang is pretty much repaired and completed. I used a dynema loop instead of a crimped stainless cable from the base of the mast to the bottom fiddle block to get it up off the deck and make it easier to use the cam cleat. I've got the cascade line tied on one end with an anchor hitch. Should the knot be an anchor hitch, a shackle knot, or a bowline?
I know the base of the mast is busy, but it works for now until I can get more lines to the cockpit. The red line is the topping lift, the Velcro straps around the blocks are to keep them from scratching the mast. The green line on port side is combination outhaul and Cunningham.
I used it in a practice race on Saturday, it works fine. I think I also found the problem with my mainsail leech in my other thread, but I want to be sure before I post.
I had a reef in for most of the race to try and make it a little more comfortable for the women and children aboard, so didn't do as well as I could have. About three minutes difference from first to last, Catalina 355, Hunter 34, Hunter 37.5, and Hunter 340.

 

[FDL S2]

View attachment 170359

Vang is pretty much repaired and completed. I used a dynema loop instead of a crimped stainless cable from the base of the mast to the bottom fiddle block to get it up off the deck and make it easier to use the cam cleat. I've got the cascade line tied on one end with an anchor hitch. Should the knot be an anchor hitch, a shackle knot, or a bowline?
I know the base of the mast is busy, but it works for now until I can get more lines to the cockpit. The red line is the topping lift, the Velcro straps around the blocks are to keep them from scratching the mast. The green line on port side is combination outhaul and Cunningham.
I used it in a practice race on Saturday, it works fine. I think I also found the problem with my mainsail leech in my other thread, but I want to be sure before I post.
I had a reef in for most of the race to try and make it a little more comfortable for the women and children aboard, so didn't do as well as I could have. About three minutes difference from first to last, Catalina 355, Hunter 34, Hunter 37.5, and Hunter 340.

How much more speed do you think you would have gotten without the reef in the main?
I race on a Hunter 310 and whether to reef or not is one of the questions we are always asking ourselves. We usually base it on how much we are fighting the weather helm and how much rudder drag we have. It was the first year racing this boat and we had varying degrees of success, so any advice helps!

 

[Bill19233]

How much more speed do you think you would have gotten without the reef in the main?
I race on a Hunter 310 and whether to reef or not is one of the questions we are always asking ourselves. We usually base it on how much we are fighting the weather helm and how much rudder drag we have. It was the first year racing this boat and we had varying degrees of success, so any advice helps!

So true, weather helm is a big issue in a full main Hunter. Owners with roller mains don't have to deal with it as much. The best advice I have for racing Hunters is don't, but it's just too much fun not to.
In this race, it was a big mistake to have a reef in. First leg was around 60 degrees, 12 to 17 knots apparent, great for a B & R rig. We touched 7.0 with the reef. We took the reef out for the last broad reach leg and hit 7.6 SOG a couple times with just main and jib, but the race wasn't long enough for us to catch up.
If I could take the reef in and out without losing a lot of ground, I would reef for up wind legs in over 15 knots apparent. But, in short races, I just usually put up with the excessive heel and weather helm or try to twist off upwind so I can have full sail for the reaches and runs. I'm hoping the cascade vang will give me more control of the main to reduce weather helm in stronger winds.
In a double handed 30 mile, six leg race last year, I reefed after the first leg and then took it out for the last downwind leg. It wore me out, but we finished so far ahead, I couldn't see the other half dozen boats in our class and I thought we were last instead of first.

 

[FDL S2]

So true, weather helm is a big issue in a full main Hunter. Owners with roller mains don't have to deal with it as much. The best advice I have for racing Hunters is don't, but it's just too much fun not to.
In this race, it was a big mistake to have a reef in. First leg was around 60 degrees, 12 to 17 knots apparent, great for a B & R rig. We touched 7.0 with the reef. We took the reef out for the last broad reach leg and hit 7.6 SOG a couple times with just main and jib, but the race wasn't long enough for us to catch up.
If I could take the reef in and out without losing a lot of ground, I would reef for up wind legs in over 15 knots apparent. But, in short races, I just usually put up with the excessive heel and weather helm or try to twist off upwind so I can have full sail for the reaches and runs. I'm hoping the cascade vang will give me more control of the main to reduce weather helm in stronger winds.
In a double handed 30 mile, six leg race last year, I reefed after the first leg and then took it out for the last downwind leg. It wore me out, but we finished so far ahead, I couldn't see the other half dozen boats in our class and I thought we were last instead of first.

Thanks, this basically confirms what we deal with every race. Saturday we had winds around 20 apparent upwind and with one reef we were fighting weather helm the whole way, downwind it would have been nice to have the full main, but it was just too much of a pain to shake it out and then have to reef again.

Next question for you: are there any tricks to get more speed downwind with just the jib and main? It really sucks when we catch a masthead boat with a 140 on the upwind leg and then watch him pull away downwind.

 

[Bill19233]

Thanks, this basically confirms what we deal with every race. Saturday we had winds around 20 apparent upwind and with one reef we were fighting weather helm the whole way, downwind it would have been nice to have the full main, but it was just too much of a pain to shake it out and then have to reef again.

Next question for you: are there any tricks to get more speed downwind with just the jib and main? It really sucks when we catch a masthead boat with a 140 on the upwind leg and then watch him pull away downwind.

There are way more experienced racers on this forum that should be answering this. But, one novice Hunter racer to another, if it’s within 15 degrees of DDW, whisker pole wing on wing. And outside 60 degree close reach to almost DDW, rig outboard jib sheets and a twing. Outboard jib sheets on reaches are worth half a knot even with our small jibs. At about 3:20 in this video from Labor Day weekend, I’m changing to an outboard jib sheet, just after that you see us wing on wing catch and pass a C355 with a big genoa on a short downwind leg. Yeah, it’s the same one that beat us last Saturday, though.