Electric harbors are coming.

[TomY]

Gee Tom, I'm kinda shocked at your denigrating seniors who happen to be comfortable. And maybe not long for this world....Kinda sounds like the Maine "...they're from away..."

You're right, that's too harsh. I observe sailors, their boats and how they sail on the water. "Age" to me is more of a state of mind than a number(and I'm a senior as well). I was referring more to the old boat and how it was being used in the age description and I include myself in that "old' category.

I observed the old Concordia had very little new tech on it which often means an "old" charging and battery storage (alternator-small bank). I'm an "old" sailor in this regard as well. We are not good candidates for a Torqueedo, we sail a lot and charge little.

In the end it was their propensity to use an outboard with a short distance to travel. A Torqueedo would be needed often and not likely supply the range they would need with no means of charge. I've known people with hard dinghy's that are adverse to rowing. Strange but there it is. I hazard to add, I think this is an "old" trait.

On the other hand, I spoke with a friend this week now well into their first season with a new Torqueedo. Like Larry, she is very happy with the range; unlike Larry, she has very little charging capability. The difference? Their dinghy is a 9' Dyer Dhow. They use the Torqueedo to supplement the oar power with a family of four. It's a perfect match. They never considered a gas outboard.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I can see using an electric motor on a dinghy. I think I would prefer it over a gas outboard. But I don't understand why all the talk is about the ultra-expensive Torqueedo instead of much cheaper trolling motors. The price alone would deter me from ever considering Torqueedo and I even like to spend money!

 

[smokey73]

I can see using an electric motor on a dinghy. I think I would prefer it over a gas outboard. But I don't understand why all the talk is about the ultra-expensive Torqueedo instead of much cheaper trolling motors. The price alone would deter me from ever considering Torqueedo and I even like to spend money!

I'm with you. I'm not in the "price is no object" tax bracket yet and probably never will be.

 

[JRT]

I can see using an electric motor on a dinghy. I think I would prefer it over a gas outboard. But I don't understand why all the talk is about the ultra-expensive Torqueedo instead of much cheaper trolling motors. The price alone would deter me from ever considering Torqueedo and I even like to spend money!

I think this becomes more of a pain if you look at removing the batteries from the dinghy, the all in one package like a small outboard with built in fuel tank or Torqueedo makes it easier. That said I could see setting up a hard dinghy with packs if I was planning to use davits. This is all thought experiments for me right now because I have zero need for a dingy on our lake, but I might try and find a small boat for my daughter that she could sail / race and I would probably go with a trolling motor and battery, especially since I have a set in my garage right now.

 

[Rick Webb]

Keep Watching

I can buy a DeWalt or other brand electric lawnmower, weed whacker, trimmer etc... that run on the current line of batteries and chargers already on the market an outboard motor is likely not far behind.

 

[jviss]

I, too, think an electric tender would be cool. I looked into the Torqeedo for my use case, which includes some planing-speed operation on occasion. The closest thing is the 9.9HP equivalent, the Cruise 4.0 TS. It's a 48V, remote battery unit. The compatible batteries, without which you lose real time battery info, is the 24-350 24V lithium pack. You need two. The are $3,000 each. The charger is $600, I think you'd need two of those, too. The total is $4,500 + 2x$3,000 + 2x$600 = $11,700. 11 hours to recharge from empty. The weight of the batteries alone is 112 lb. I'm not sure how you'd charge these, I guess run two cords to the two chargers that are in the boat. Not sure they are waterproof. There's a fast charger, but it's $2,000, and only is really fast run off 230VAC.

 

[jviss]

Keep Watching

I can buy a DeWalt or other brand electric lawnmower, weed whacker, trimmer etc... that run on the current line of batteries and chargers already on the market an outboard motor is likely not far behind.

You could just chuck a shaft with a prop into your DeWalt drill - problem solved! I guess those German engineers at Torqeedo have just been wasting their time.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Wow! Jviss, those numbers really do put a damper on the economic growth of electric outboards. No wonder you have pushed your point so hard.
I think Torqedos are way over priced, which is why I am planning to go with a trolling motor for $500 plus batteries and charger. The extra cost is made up for in the expected satisfaction I'll get from quiet, smell-free, rechargeable independence. The one problem with trolling motors is that they are designed specifically for trolling speeds. This is mostly done with the propeller design. There are companies that make aftermarket high performance and custom trolling motor props. I'm looking into those options too.
If I were to find some old gas motor in the 2 to 10hp range for free, I think I'd even have fun retro fitting it with something like a 5hp 3-phase AC motor. The Mythbusters crew have a YouTube video of just such a project.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Rick486]

I, too, think an electric tender would be cool. I looked into the Torqeedo for my use case, which includes some planing-speed operation on occasion. The closest thing is the 9.9HP equivalent, the Cruise 4.0 TS. It's a 48V, remote battery unit. The compatible batteries, without which you lose real time battery info, is the 24-350 24V lithium pack. You need two. The are $3,000 each. The charger is $600, I think you'd need two of those, too. The total is $4,500 + 2x$3,000 + 2x$600 = $11,700. 11 hours to recharge from empty. The weight of the batteries alone is 112 lb. I'm not sure how you'd charge these, I guess run two cords to the two chargers that are in the boat. Not sure they are waterproof. There's a fast charger, but it's $2,000, and only is really fast run off 230VAC.

Great pic. One picture......etc

 

[jviss]

The trolling motor idea has merit if you're content to go slowly in calm water.

When I returned from my sail last weekend, on Sunday, with an astronomically high tide the current in our rivr port, the Westport River, in Westport, MA, was running over 3 kt. at max ebb. I was making 3,000 RPM in my Tartan 3800 (38HP diesel) and making about 3 kt over the ground at the river mouth. At our mooring we had a hard time getting the mooring lines on with the current. Methinks if your dinghy was trolling-motor propelled you'd have to wait for the tide to turn before getting to the dock. These are the times I'm glad I have a 15HP motor on my 9' RIB.

a 5hp 3-phase AC motor

$950, 95 lb.

Where would the 3-phase AC power come from?

 

[Rick Webb]

You could just chuck a shaft with a prop into your DeWalt drill - problem solved! I guess those German engineers at Torqeedo have just been wasting their time.

Maybe just use the paint mixer on the drill. Then I can also use the DeWalt fan or the leaf blower on the sails when the wind dies out.

Wait, I'll stick the blower in the water and I have a jet boat.

 

[DArcy]

Diesel electric drives have been used for over 100 years in trains as well as ships. These have been commonly used in trains for a long time and recently there has been a growth of diesel electric propulsion for surface ships.

Volvo Penta is jumping on that wagon Volvo Penta unveils hybrid marine propulsion concept

West Marine even has a page on electric propulsion which includes a section on hybrid drives Electric and Hybrid Propulsion Systems for your Boat | West Marine

There is a 39 foot sailboat in my harbour that converted to electric drive. For his use it makes sense since he doesn't motor that far, mostly just getting in and out of the harbour, and his boat sails very well in light air. He has enough solar power that he doesn't need to plug in very often so it is mostly free energy. If you add a small diesel generator you can get rid of range anxiety although you may run across the problem that some plug in hybrid car drivers find which is the fuel goes stale before you use it.

The thing that bugs me is you only get about 5 to 7 years (if you're lucky) out of the batteries then you have to replace the most expensive part of the system. For a small trolling motor on a dinghy that shouldn't be a problem but @jviss example of $6,000 battery for the 10hp motor would be a tough pill to swallow.

 

[TomY]

Just found this
Solar powered charging station for boats.
Local Company Introduces Solar Powered Boat Charging Stations - ABC 6 News

-Will (Dragonfly)

I haven't been following closely (the alternative energy debate) but I'm not surprised you found this, Will. I'm with you, change happens and we see it in culture.

In the last 3 decades I witnessed a sea change in the construction industry through cordless tools. I bought a few cordless drills in the 80's but I was a late adopter. As a design builder most of my life, cords were the rule back then. These battery tools were too anemic in my view for any real construction. On big projects, we lived within miles of electrical cords.

Change happened slowly but surely. Today, most of the building in the world is done with cordless tools. Did construction culture make this change to be green? Hahahaha! I know more than I want to about the culture of the industry. We bought them because they were better tools.

Those anemic tools I started with got used more than I expected because they were handier, lighter, and made us (builders, electricians, plumbers) more efficient. The tech evolved, and 30 years later, Bob's your uncle.

What happened?

When I think about it, I realize the tools changed the way of construction - even changed products. I rarely buy nails anymore, we have screws adapted to a near endless variety of driver/drills that have evolved.

Today, I've got a whole arsenal of corded tools. Most are more powerful, they are heavier, and 99% of them just sit on the shelves. It turns out, I (we) didn't always need that power nor the extra work they created in weight and cords. I can do more with less effort.

Construction drives the even bigger home Cheapo market. When I have to go into one (I detest them ), I'm amazed at the isles of tools. I still like to use a sharp handsaw (and oars) and use them often but what sort of tool does the new generation buy today?

"These came with cords once, Dad? Why?" Good question.

 

[jviss]

Today, I've got a whole arsenal of corded tools. Most are more powerful, they are heavier, and 99% of them just sit on the shelves. It turns out, I (we) didn't always need that power nor the extra work they created in weight and cords. I can do more with less effort.

When I have a heavy drilling, cutting, or grinding task I use a corded tool. My battery tools just aren't up to the task.

I do like and use the battery ones, though, for the convenience of not having to rig a cord.

I think most of the progress in cordless tools has been due to the drop in price of Li-ion batteries, and the development of brushless motors.

 

[Daveinet]

The one problem with trolling motors is that they are designed specifically for trolling speeds. This is mostly done with the propeller design. There are companies that make aftermarket high performance and custom trolling motor props. I'm looking into those options too.
-Will (Dragonfly)

Will, I use a 24 volt trolling motor on my RL 24. I have not problem with the speed - it around 5 knots, which is pretty typical for most sailboats anyway. If the wind is above 30 knots, you do have a problem moving the boat, but otherwise its the cats meow. Its the stock prop. The Ebay 86lbs thrust trolling motor is really designed as a dingy motor and not really a trolling motor, so its cruising speed is a little faster.

When I have a heavy drilling, cutting, or grinding task I use a corded tool. My battery tools just aren't up to the task.

I recently bought a Rigid brushless motor drill. It will way out perform any corded drill. You have to be very careful because if is catches, it will cause injury. I've hurt myself more than once with it. I chose it because I carry it with me sailing to raise my swing keel. Works great for that as well as for a bilge pump/squirt gun.
The biggest recent advancement in drill motors has been going to brushless. There are significantly more poles active at one time, which dramatically increases available torque.
LiFePO 4 have been around for more than 10 years, but many manufacturers are still not using them. They do not have as much capacity density as other lithium-ion batteries, so the specs do not look as good on paper. However they much more durable and typically can last up to 10 years or more. This is what Tesla is using in their cars.

 

[jviss]

It will way out perform any corded drill.

I seriously doubt that. Maybe we're not acquainted with the same kind of corded drills.

This is what Tesla is using in their cars.

Tesla uses NCA chemistry, or Nickel, Cobalt, and Aluminium (LiNiCoAlO2).

 

[jssailem]

charging station for boats.

Boy that takes up a bit of dock space that would limit boat access. Maybe they need to elevate it so it acts as a shade space. Who is going to clean off the bird poop that is bound to be deposited within the week.

 

[SoSound]

Not ALL EVs, just not building any more hybrids or plug-in hybrids;
GM, VW Say They Won't Build Hybrids Or Plug-in Hybrids, Only Battery Electric Cars

And then there's this;
Economics of Electric Vehicles Mean Oil's Days As A Transport Fuel Are Numbered

 

[Will Gilmore]

Boy that takes up a bit of dock space that would limit boat access. Maybe they need to elevate it so it acts as a shade space. Who is going to clean off the bird poop that is bound to be deposited within the week.

That was exactly my thought when I saw it. Just look at the dock in the back ground. Electric outlets every 12 feet. There's no source in sight. No reason the panels need to be on the dock.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Bob J.]

And then there's this;
Economics of Electric Vehicles Mean Oil's Days As A Transport Fuel Are Numbered

Interesting perspective.