News flash: cool fast boats sell.

[Simon Sexton]

Yeah, my C25, although a tall rigger, was slow when I first bought her used off Craigslist; she needed a hull job desperately and had all basic rigging. As time went by, I earned money racing in Galveston for different crews and organizations and eventually mustered up enough cash to buy older, used racing parts and fit them to Valiant. A cockpit traveler system, lighter Harken blocks and tackle, lighter self-tailing winches, new hull paint and wax, interior gutting, braces under the shroud plates, a 30% lighter mast, Spectra halyards, all new sheets, a kevlar mainsail and more adjustable rigging (cunningham, boom vang, outhaul, topping lift, etc.). I even removed the furling pole and had my jib fitted with hanks to give me a better sail plan and shape; I didn't want to replace that headsail because it came brand new with the boat as a 130% genoa.
Would a new boat have been nice? Well, of course, but I didn't buy a new one once I started working on Valiant because she was, and still is, mine. I put my heart and soul and hard work and time into getting her the way I like her, and I wouldn't trade her for the world. She may look like a normal 1984 C25, but she can and has outrun top-of-the-line yachts (Beneteaus, Js, etc.) in the right weather and with the right crew onboard. You are right, Jackdaw, in saying that newer designs and faster boats sell, but selling a boat to a customer and having the customer sell their heart to the boat are two completely different things. I've sailed a few top-line boats (America's Cup Yachts America, Shamrock and USA 76 included), and I was monumentally impressed, of course, but I was also very uncomfortable and somewhat afraid something might break (which things typically did on Beneteaus more than others). You seem to be a very experienced and well seasoned racer, sir, and I respect that very much because I'm only 18 years old and love to both teach and learn the ways of strategic sailing; I hope to get better acquainted with you, as well as everyone else on this website! Being stuck in Cypress sucks hardly anyone sails except the Sea Scouts!

 

[Jackdaw]

Yeah, my C25, although a tall rigger, was slow when I first bought her used off Craigslist; she needed a hull job desperately and had all basic rigging. As time went by, I earned money racing in Galveston for different crews and organizations and eventually mustered up enough cash to buy older, used racing parts and fit them to Valiant. A cockpit traveler system, lighter Harken blocks and tackle, lighter self-tailing winches, new hull paint and wax, interior gutting, braces under the shroud plates, a 30% lighter mast, Spectra halyards, all new sheets, a kevlar mainsail and more adjustable rigging (cunningham, boom vang, outhaul, topping lift, etc.). I even removed the furling pole and had my jib fitted with hanks to give me a better sail plan and shape; I didn't want to replace that headsail because it came brand new with the boat as a 130% genoa.
Would a new boat have been nice? Well, of course, but I didn't buy a new one once I started working on Valiant because she was, and still is, mine. I put my heart and soul and hard work and time into getting her the way I like her, and I wouldn't trade her for the world. She may look like a normal 1984 C25, but she can and has outrun top-of-the-line yachts (Beneteaus, Js, etc.) in the right weather and with the right crew onboard. You are right, Jackdaw, in saying that newer designs and faster boats sell, but selling a boat to a customer and having the customer sell their heart to the boat are two completely different things. I've sailed a few top-line boats (America's Cup Yachts America, Shamrock and USA 76 included), and I was monumentally impressed, of course, but I was also very uncomfortable and somewhat afraid something might break (which things typically did on Beneteaus more than others). You seem to be a very experienced and well seasoned racer, sir, and I respect that very much because I'm only 18 years old and love to both teach and learn the ways of strategic sailing; I hope to get better acquainted with you, as well as everyone else on this website! Being stuck in Cypress sucks hardly anyone sails except the Sea Scouts!

Well no doubt the best boat is the one you own and love. Dreams are nice, but the fact is we all live in the real world that imposes limits on us all. So your efforts on your c25 are well founded. make her fast! But at some point I'd start looking how to avoid diminishing returns.... spending money for a lighter C25 mast would never make my short list.

On a happier note, you got PAID to crew in the bay? That's impressive at any age, let alone as a teenager! What boats? I know lots of people down your way.

 

[Daveinet]

OK, tell me more.

F22. There is a Youtube video of one sailing 8 knots in only 6 knots of wind. I've not heard of any monohull that will sail faster than the wind speed.

 

[JRacer]

F22. There is a Youtube video of one sailing 8 knots in only 6 knots of wind. I've not heard of any monohull that will sail faster than the wind speed.

Moth will, I think.

 

[Jackdaw]

F22. There is a Youtube video of one sailing 8 knots in only 6 knots of wind. I've not heard of any monohull that will sail faster than the wind speed.

Of course. But hardly a cruising boat.

 

[Will Gilmore]

NOBODY is selling to you. You’re not in the market. The builder had to build for who will buy. They know that 80% of the existing boat owners will never buy a new boat. They pretty much ignore that part.

You bet this is all true as it is however, one question, that is obvious, is why aren't they buying. PRICE, of course. However, it's more complicated than that. The business world is notoriously conservative. As soon as there are silent partners, investors, a board of directors with shares in the company, gone is that guy who designs and builds a boat because he has a "hunch" it will do well and find a market that is not already there. These companies will always design and build to better exploit their existing market. That means they won't take a chance that a cheaper boat will sell to a previously unknown market. They could sell to the high end class, those who can and will pay any sum for quality and status. This allows for good profit margins on investment but its very nature demands that it stay exclusive, that's really what they are paying for. They could sell a quality cruiser that is safe, inexpensive to operate and self-sufficient but, as has been pointed out, that market doesn't turn over quickly enough to make lower profit margins worth any more than marketing dollars to keep a company name out there.
I grew up in the 60s and 70s on the Gulf coast of Florida where my father ran head boats and we hung out at the marine ways admiring the classic lines of wooden boats that were old back then. We talked in disdain about the newer "Clorox bottle" plastic boats and they all sailed like toads. In my early teens we lived aboard a new custom built wooden schooner before we moved out of Florida to start my high school years in the mountains of New Hampshire. I have not done much sailing since even though it had always been my dream to live aboard again and sail the world. Recently, I had occasion to visit Miami. I was saddened to notice, as I drove across the causeway, that not a single mast was to be seen. Nowhere in Miami did I ever see a sailboat. Plenty of mega yachts and Cigarette/Donzi types, expensive cabin cruisers, but no sailboats. The gulf coast was better but still very few.
I feel sailors, real sailors, those who actually like to travel under a sail are a unique breed. The racers, yeah, they are just that, that's why the market is strong, racers need new, lighter, faster... but, in a one class world, speed is different than in an open class world. Used is available and not only is it nearly as good but, sailors are do-it-yourselfers. Materials cost too much now to build a boat from scratch if your not an experienced boat builder and don't have the time to learn on the job. (You know the must popular sailboat in the world is the optimus pram, a boat designed to be built out of two sheets of plywood by a father/son over a couple of weekends but, if you want to race in the class events, you better be prepared to pay $$$ for a light glass molded hull and top racing hardware. The class's popularity shows that there are plenty who will).
I am not a racer, I love cruising. I love the adventure and the danger of being completely reliant upon my own preparations, plans, and constructs. I love to travel and the live aboard community is awesome. Thank God there are plenty of used toads out there for me to browse and dream and plan on.
I finally bought another sailboat after decades without and it was a pretty little weekender just sitting on the side of the road. I had never heard of a mariner 19 but I'm so looking forward to fixing her up and turning her into an independent, self-sufficient, bluewater capable, compact liveaboard. Of course there's no market for such a boat but, it's not that there aren't takers, I think I'm not alone in what I want from a boat, there just isn't a reasonable way to make a boat cheap enough for people like me and still make a profit.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[AlastairLC]

At least in the US, if the boat has sleeping quarters, cooking facilities, and a head, then it qualifies as a second home and the mortgage interest is deductible on Schedule A of the 1040.

The proposed tax bill would eliminate that.

 

[Simon Sexton]

Well no doubt the best boat is the one you own and love. Dreams are nice, but the fact is we all live in the real world that imposes limits on us all. So your efforts on your c25 are well founded. make her fast! But at some point I'd start looking how to avoid diminishing returns.... spending money for a lighter C25 mast would never make my short list.

On a happier note, you got PAID to crew in the bay? That's impressive at any age, let alone as a teenager! What boats? I know lots of people down your way.

Thank you, sir! I raced for Sea Star Base Galveston and crewed Sonars, Pearson 30s, C&C 57, Freedom 30 Schooner, San Juan 35, a classic schooner named Tom Foolery, and taught racing and raced Aggie Cup in Flying Juniors. The big name at the Base is Mike Janota, you may have heard of him! He really helped me out with a lot of lessons. In Kemah, I race for Robert Frease, a Sea Scout Skipper and popular racer in the area; his boat, Sirley, is a fifty footer (don't know her make to this day, as he wouldn't tell me), but she's very fast and has placed high in Harvest Moon, Icicle, and Rum Regattas. I also have sailed for team Firewater under multiple captains; she's a San Juan 45 with beautiful Kevlar sails and a monstrous gennaker; we've only won one race with her, but this upcoming Spring we'll have a more experienced crew and I'm really hoping things will go better for us. In my spare time, I've been restoring and selling basic boats since two years ago, and am currently working on an AMF Sunbird. She's almost finished, I've just gotta get her fiberglass worked on and redone (she was beat up pretty badly when I found her). The most I've sold a boat for was $15k; she was a San Juan 23 and I actually restored her using Sonar parts...holy crap, it worked tremendously!! She turned out being as fast if not faster than actual Sonars, and I got a ton of offers for her once I posted her on Craigslist, but I of course sold it to the guy who said, "I AM A HUGE FAN OF SONARS AND CAN'T AFFORD ONE, CAN I PLEASE BUY THIS BOAT FOR 15" and it was just. Yes. Anyway, I'm bantering now, but the most money I ever made was racing for the base; I worked summers there, and got paid about $250 weekly.

 

[walt]

I think a few more folks in the retired but pre medicare group will be dropping out of buying any sort of boat. I was self employed when working so used the health insurance exchange which significantly lowered my premium when it came out and it was also good for early retirement. Someone is out to crash this and I just found out my health insurance premium is going up 41.9% for next year. Im still a bunch of years away from Medicare and thank goodness I dont have a boat payment.

 

[Johann]

The proposed tax bill would eliminate that.

Source?

All I see is a $500,000 limit.

 

[Jackdaw]

You bet this is all true as it is however, one question, that is obvious, is why aren't they buying. PRICE, of course.

I'm not sure. If that were true, powerboats would be suffering as well, and they are not. Foot for foot powerboats are no deal vs sailboats. Indeed, many a buyer of a new powerboat is a former sailor who no longer wants to deal with pulling lines. Many new designs are created to try and deal with that reality.

 

[Will Gilmore]

I'm not sure. If that were true, powerboats would be suffering as well, and they are not. Foot for foot powerboats are no deal vs sailboats.

I'm not trying to suggest sales are suffering, just that the markets for sail are not the same as they use to be. Powerboats are, thought of at least, as easier to own and hold socially common acceptance in a world where boating in general is more open to the public then ever (anyone and everyone could get a boat, not just the few who live a life around the water). There are more power boats on lawns and in garages then I ever remember from my childhood. I'm sure if you could look at all the sales numbers, boat ownership is up overall. They just don't happen to be sailboats.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[AlastairLC]

Source?

All I see is a $500,000 limit.

According to write ups in the WSJ, mortgage interest deductions on second homes would be eliminated. (Existing ones may be grandfathered. Not sure about that.)

 

[Will Gilmore]

The answer is to convert the mortgage on second homes to an investment property. Most second homes are investments anyhow. Interest rates on second homes are not as good either. Investments, on the other hand, are seen as a stimulation to the economy and get consideration for that when policy is being written. How that might transfer to a boat is another issue. Maybe putting your boat up on air b&b for part of the year. Boat ownership is expensive.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[danstanford]

Have been thinking about this a ton as it is somewhat tangent to my own business issues and, of course, I get reminded by the new posts every day!
Someone (forgive me for the lack of attribution), made great sense when they observed that we could buy a 10 year old 'traditional' boat for a fraction of the price of new but retaining a huge percentage of the functionality of the new boat. I recently bought a 10 year old boat that is pretty much identical to a 2016 version of the same boat.
However, I could not buy a 10 year old version of a Pogo 36 which would perform like the new version of that boat. Looking 10 years into the future, if no one makes a significant advance (foiling perhaps) in the speed/function of this type of boat, one could assume that the market for new fast cool boats would cool significantly.
My current thoughts while I lust over the Pogo.....

 

[Jackdaw]

Have been thinking about this a ton as it is somewhat tangent to my own business issues and, of course, I get reminded by the new posts every day!
Someone (forgive me for the lack of attribution), made great sense when they observed that we could buy a 10 year old 'traditional' boat for a fraction of the price of new but retaining a huge percentage of the functionality of the new boat. I recently bought a 10 year old boat that is pretty much identical to a 2016 version of the same boat.
However, I could not buy a 10 year old version of a Pogo 36 which would perform like the new version of that boat. Looking 10 years into the future, if no one makes a significant advance (foiling perhaps) in the speed/function of this type of boat, one could assume that the market for new fast cool boats would cool significantly.
My current thoughts while I lust over the Pogo.....

Indeed. If the innovation stops, you run the risk of having the used market canabilize your new product sales. That’s as true for Pogo tomorrow as it is for Hunter today.

 

[Hayden Watson]

, but about cool fast boats. I am watching the start of leg 2 in the Volvo Ocean Race and the boats are sailing in 26 knots wind with the Code 0 J1, J2 and full main doing 32 knots of boat speed.

 

[dlochner]

, but about cool fast boats. I am watching the start of leg 2 in the Volvo Ocean Race and the boats are sailing in 26 knots wind with the Code 0 J1, J2 and full main doing 32 knots of boat speed.

If you think the Pogo 36 interior is spartan, you need to see the inside of one these Volvo boats. Had the chance to get inside the first Il Mostro, a VOR 70. Very short on creature comforts. Bunks are just below the cockpit winches, simple cots, no mattresses, but they did have a cool block and tackle system to keep them level. The head is just a carbon fiber toilet without a seat. Barely standing headroom.

The Nav station ran along the centerline under the cockpit and between the berths. It pivoted so the table surface would always be level. The computer monitors swiveled so the crew could always sit on the high side.

It would be fun to go for a day sail, but I"m pretty certain I don't want to spend a month on one of these boats.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Indeed. If the innovation stops, you run the risk of having the used market canabilize your new product sales.

That makes perfect sense except that the demographics where the market is strongest is high end and racing yachts. While the racers may not be incline to buy new where used will do, I think there is not much Americans do better than market. It's what makes America the top economic force in the world. All all things being equal, a promise of improvement over last year's model is enough for those who can afford it.
For those who take a more practical philosophy to boat ownership, price would beat new.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[danstanford]

All all things being equal, a promise of improvement over last year's model is enough for those who can afford it.
- Will (Dragonfly)

Will, I think this sentence is where I disagree. We were talking about why the North American manufacturers aren't flourishing like Pogo is and most of what has been written has focussed on the differences in the boats offered by each. Every year we see improvement promised by all the manufacturers marketing departments, over the previous years boats but it is seldom transformative improvement. The ability to cruise and plane is transformative and accessed only by buying a new boat for the most part.
I don't mean to be pedantic or argumentative, just to really get into the meat of this speculative topic. It is particularly hard for me to take the dispassionate perspective because I know it is about more than me as a consumer. I could afford a new Pogo, I would love to race one, but since I can only have one boat I continually lean to a boat offering more for the rest of my family. I love trying to get into the headspace of all of those folks making a different choice.
I don't remember reading it here, but does anyone know the geographic makeup of Pogo's customers?
Dan