This I don't understand. Multiple parts can be made on a CNC either by stacking multiple layers & using long tools, or by nesting with multiple G30/G50 offsets to repeat tool motion in multiple locations. How does that leave you with slower production? Am I missing something? Am I not understanding what you are saying?
News flash: cool fast boats sell.
- Thread starter Jackdaw
- Start date
That for sure. But the average 70s boat is more Grand Torino than XKE. Like your boat, that will be appreciated forever, for what what is was. But make no mistake they will stop making boats like that. Mostly already have. And people will get used to the new style. And the older ones that will not will die anyway. Kinda morbid but its the way the world works, for all things.
We knew we wouldn't make those old boats again(or the XKE). Not much does endure without change.
But it's pieces of their style that continue to influence boat design, today. You see the XKE in new car design,... Grand Torino(is that what is posted?), not so much.
So what is the new style going forward? It's a work in progress, I think.
I think it will become faster(they always do), leaner(ditto), less a cruiser(a dramatic turn) - more a daysailer(a return to the past). Wood: light, strong and appealing, will be in it, if only because it sells boats.
For sure a sure in progress!
Regarding lightness, take a look the interior of the Elan S5, a 40 foot performance cruiser. In this shot the 'wood' is actually a very thin veneer over glass/carbon foam sandwich. It saves SEVEN PERCENT on the hull weight vs the version with regular wood products. Amazing.
That boat at least is keeping the wood look, but in a lighter color. Sort of a transitional thing. Ready to go almost all the way? Swan's new ClubSwan 50 has no wood at all, save for the thin veneer over the carbon floor boards and table. Light, fast, durable.
This boat is so light that it can plane under motor power.
Regarding lightness, take a look the interior of the Elan S5, a 40 foot performance cruiser. In this shot the 'wood' is actually a very thin veneer over glass/carbon foam sandwich. It saves SEVEN PERCENT on the hull weight vs the version with regular wood products. Amazing.
That boat at least is keeping the wood look, but in a lighter color. Sort of a transitional thing. Ready to go almost all the way? Swan's new ClubSwan 50 has no wood at all, save for the thin veneer over the carbon floor boards and table. Light, fast, durable.
This boat is so light that it can plane under motor power.
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That boat at least is keeping the wood look, but in a lighter color. Sort of a transitional thing. Ready to go almost all the way? Swan's new ClubSwan 50 has no wood at all, save for the thin veneer over the carbon floor boards and table. Light, fast, durable.
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You call that no wood! Veneer, is wood. I like the Swan 50. That sole, that's what I mean about classic boat style. Teak and holly sole, that's old style. It looks terrific in the modern layout of the Swan.
What is amazing about the Elan is how large a living space they got into 40 feet. Maybe a little cramped?
The Swan on the other hand is so spacious. But I'm not sure what you do with that much space. It looks like they may have given the boat some deck space, above. Nice boats.
That boat at least is keeping the wood look, but in a lighter color. Sort of a transitional thing. Ready to go almost all the way? Swan's new ClubSwan 50 has no wood at all, save for the thin veneer over the carbon floor boards and table. Light, fast, durable.
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You call that no wood! Veneer, is wood.
I like the Swan 50. That sole, that's what I mean about classic boat style. Teak and holly sole, that's old style. It looks terrific in the modern layout of the Swan. What is amazing about the Elan is how large a living space they got into 40 feet. Maybe a little cramped?
The Swan on the other hand is so spacious. But I'm not sure what you do with that much space. It looks like they may have given the boat some deck space, above. Nice boats.
The evolution towards brighter interiors has been a long time coming. In 1993 Sabre moved from teak interiors to cherry, in a lighter finish. When we were shopping for new to us boat a few years ago, we considered a Tartan 37, but the extensive use of dark teak was just too depressing.
And what goes around comes around. Sabre is now introducing power boats with a "Herreshoff Interior" white panels trimmed in teak. That's a century old modern finish.
And what goes around comes around. Sabre is now introducing power boats with a "Herreshoff Interior" white panels trimmed in teak. That's a century old modern finish.
Jim, that is exactly the argument of the trade show salesman. It seems like such a great deal, replace 6 workstations with one machine and you can do just what you said. However, those six workstations processed a single part in 30 sec. each, that is then 180 seconds to process a part completely plus the transport and handling time between stations (forget about setup, we are talking enough parts to make that trivial). The new CNC can process those parts in, let's say, half the total time minus the transport and handling time. Sounds like a great deal. The issue becomes one of parallel processing. Even though one part is done in less time than the six workstations, the CNC machine holds onto that part for 45 seconds each. That means, the whole factory moves at a maximum rate of producing one part every 45 seconds when it actually was producing one part every 30 seconds before. More machines involved means; while part A is getting cut to length (30 sec), part B is getting cut to width (30 sec), part C is, at the same time, getting a finished edge (30 sec), and part D is getting shelf dados routed into it (30 sec), all at the same time, part E is getting rail joints cut (30 sec) and part F is getting door hinges predrilled (30 sec). Where each of these machines take 30 seconds to process a part, that means a part pops off the line every 30 seconds, in theory, instead of the 45 seconds the CNC produces them at. There is so much money invested in this machine that the factory gets tooled around the CNC. I love CNC machines, I'm not arguing against them, I just think they present an interesting problem in production/process engineering.
-Will (Dragonfly)
That is a great point about returning to the past and daysailers. Because there were about 2 serious ocean sailors originally, way back in the beginning of the pleasure sailor. Everyone went for an afternoon sail (of those few who sailed), not a pleasurable couple of weeks sailing your family boat to Bimini or San Juan.
If those days are returning. do you see a cyclic trend where the industry slowly moves back towards racers, to cruisers to cruiser/racers and back again?
Of wood and design. There will always be a market for wood, not necessarily one that isn't won over by price but, wood is nautical and that is much of what attracts people to sailing, that sense of tradition, the classic.
I'm sure, Jack, that you know how much a mint condition Grand Torino is worth today. How could that not be a sign of continued and enduring appreciation?
-Will (Dragonfly)
It's certainly beautiful, but there's nothing to hold on to, moving about underway!
Simple scarcity. Because most were rightfully crushed by 1990s. They drive like turds.
The underside of the soffits on both sides of the cabin tops are designed handholds. Common on the new generation of very beamy boats, like the ClubSwan, Pogos, or even the Beneteau Sense series.
Sure. But most of them (if they think "sport") would opt for a Focus STS or an Impreza STi.
NO, the real reason for CNC is perfect cut and perfect fitment every time. The labor savings is in the perfect fitment. All the holes line up, all the screws go in, no fiddling around with wood that warps and doesn't line up correctly.
BTY: What I remember seeing at the boat shows did not look like the stuff in the video. The surface was more like a paper veneer, rather than a durable product. Truthfully, I don't mind plastic. My old motorhome had Wilsonart laminate stretched over all the cabinets. At 34 years old, the cabinets still looked like brand new. The corners didn't chip away. The surfaces were scratch proof. It didn't rot.
Now I see the problem. The salesman oversold the benefits of the NC system & fudged the math on the number of stations it would have the capacity to replace so that he could justify the size of the investment & quote an unrealistic return on investment time frame to artificially sweeten the deal. That makes perfect sense. I'm guessing that if the new machine had replaced 2 or 3 stations, rather than 6, you probably would have been good. Salesman's math & engineer's math don't always produce the same results.
CNC is a fantastic option in a lot of situations, but it is not the best answer to every manufacturing need.
Also. CNC comes in many different flavors. If you have a conversational controller, like you usually see on a Mazak, simple tool motion can be plugged in by hand pretty quickly at the control panel. Those machines are great for short runs with standard tooling. If you have complex shapes to generate, then a more traditional controller, like a Fanuc or an Analam, that gets G-code from a post, is the usually the best tool for the job. ...& you usually want to have a tool room stocked with prequalified consumable tooling already in holders.
In the Gunboats that I was on, pretty much everything was carbon fiber, even the cabinets & other interior parts. I was amazed at how well those guys were able to keep the weight down.
There are a lot of nice composites out there these days & it looks like they are still getting better as time goes by. As much as I like wood, the other options are hard to ignore.
Well Okay! There are duds but I don't think the '67 mustang or the GTO is due to scarcity.
No, these are emotional attachments based in nostalgia, and an undeniable "cool" factor, just as you point out about the XKE
. They evoke an image of a kind of 'old school sophistication' in our minds. Even their simplicity has a certain appeal. They are easy to work-on, modify, operate, understand. I feel that way about wood. I understand it. I know its appeal to others from a marketing point of view. While I am interested in mixing other materials, media, in my work, I won't know it will sell until I commit time and money to it. I think concrete is beautiful, it is flexible and easy to understand, not for a boat, for art (just wanted to make that clear, NO CEMENT BOATS). Copper, glass even plastic has artistic possibilities. It's all in the presentation. There are some design elements that are always going to be valued and have their influence. Meeting the market demand is economics 101.Economics 201 is influencing the market to find your cheaper, easier to make, more efficient design element appealing. I'm not saying wood will always endure as a valuable design element or a sweet sheerline either. All of these things are only as valuable as the market would have them. However, historically, there have always been those who look back with desire. Either to recapture a feeling or to meet some childhood image of storybook times, sometimes only to impress.
Utility is important, that includes efficiency, performance, and comfort. If another aesthetic has to be sacrificed then sure, plenty of people will shift their view. Lots of people will remain attached to the old aesthetic and even pass that aesthetic on to others. There will be young generations of customers entering the market who grew up around the modern designs but have been given the old sense of aesthetic by their parents, books and media, stories or some hipster attitude of rebellious superiority. They are a market segment to be appealed to as well.
Economics 301 would be creating new markets. Where do sailboats stand on that front? Sadly, I don't see movement in that direction.
- Will (Dragonfly)
The builders of the these new beamy boats have happy found that SPACE weighs nothing... Its the furniture that they might have put in that add weight! So boats like the ClubSwan and the Pogos have lots of open space. The Elan is rather roomy as well, that was not a great picture.
101:Well Okay! There are duds but I don't think the '67 mustang or the GTO is due to scarcity.
No, these are emotional attachments based in nostalgia, and an undeniable "cool" factor, just as you point out about the XKE
Economics 201 is influencing the market to find your cheaper, easier to make, more efficient design element appealing. I'm not saying wood will always endure as a valuable design element or a sweet sheerline either. All of these things are only as valuable as the market would have them. However, historically, there have always been those who look back with desire. Either to recapture a feeling or to meet some childhood image of storybook times, sometimes only to impress.
Utility is important, that includes efficiency, performance, and comfort. If another aesthetic has to be sacrificed then sure, plenty of people will shift their view. Lots of people will remain attached to the old aesthetic and even pass that aesthetic on to others. There will be young generations of customers entering the market who grew up around the modern designs but have been given the old sense of aesthetic by their parents, books and media, stories or some hipster attitude of rebellious superiority. They are a market segment to be appealed to as well.
Economics 301 would be creating new markets. Where do sailboats stand on that front? Sadly, I don't see movement in that direction.
- Will (Dragonfly)
Sorry but the current price of a GTO is TOTALLY due to its scarcity. If there were everywhere their value would be a tiny fraction of what they get now. Its all demand with fixed limited supply. If GMC built that exact car today and tried to sell it nobody would by it.
201:
Lightweight boat construction is MORE expense, not less. Those laminated panels (veneer over carbon and foam) are much more costly to build than straight wood. A Pogo 35 costs much more then a First 35. The builders are not trying to get people into cheaper products. But these techniques makes a faster boat.
Wood was used for a long time because it was the best material for the job. That is no longer true, and you'll see its use mostly disappear (except for trim and veneer) over time. Its understandable, but your personal experience is effecting your view.
301:
Light, fast boats. What we're talking about!
I'm going to latch onto this relatively obscure comment because I find your other arguments too well made to repost to (a fencing reference not an Internet chat reference). GMC would totally sell this car but, with revisions. GTOs are the first recognized American production muscle car. It's icon value alone is enough to carry sales that could pay for production costs and return a profit. With the right ad campaign it could out sell the revived challenger and charger together.
Of course, I don't really have any idea, I only admire those cars from afar as part of my older and more sophisticated than thou persona
. Which is really hard to do here, where so many are older and more experienced than I.- Will (Dragonfly)
Exactly Jim, but if you let that little/big lie dissuade you from investing you will surely die as a manufacturer today. I bought my first one when I couldn't afford it because a friend in the business told me "If a sceptic like you thinks it is close to viable you should already own it". I now own 5 of them of different types and capacities and they are the reason I have options today...including the wealth to retire! Currently I can design a cabinet on the computer in my office that is totally custom in sizes, door arrangement, and drawer size/arrangement in literally a few minutes. This can then be sent to a CNC beam saw that optimizes the sheets of material for the job (from one cabinet to several kitchens), tells the operator how to cut it, and print a label for each part showing part name, cabinet name, etc including a bar code. The next cnc has a bar code reader that reads that bar code and calls up the programs for 1 face and all 4 edges to drill, route, insert dowels, and has a saw that rotates 360 degrees. All the hardware goes right into the predrilled holes and the cabinet assembles like Lego in a CNC case clamp. I have been in business since we stick built exclusively, and we still do some jobs that way, but CNC is a game changer.
I believe CNC will ultimately be the thing that re-patriates lots of manufacturing to ome markets away from Asia and other low cost markets. For a little more than a million you can create a world class manufacturing plant today which can do things much more quickly than ordering the equivalent products in big batches with long lead times.
Dan