First of all, the European market is much stronger than the U.S. market when it comes to new boat sales. That is why J/Boats and others are successful over all because they make boats over seas and sell them there as well. J/Boats and any new boat are not enjoying the same sales in the United States. J/Boats also does well elsewhere, like Australia, New Zealand and even in Russia they are selling their products. New boats are expensive anywhere. I guess people have deeper pockets generally speaking in Europe, or they choose to spend their money on boats. Sometimes you will find government incentives to also buy boats - especially sail, like in Canada and that helps the consumer. If you go to big boat shows, like Annapolis, you will see a huge presence of European boat companies. I've been going to the Annapolis Boat Show since the 70's and in the heyday of sailing, you would see many more boats mostly from the U.S. Not so now. Even the big players in the U.S. don't display their whole line up of boats anymore. Too expensive, sails are not there and while things are getting better every year, they are not like it used to be. Of course there are people who can afford anything and they buy what they want. And, there are a few markets where things are better than most other locations. The north east would be one of them, the left coast another and even Chicago has enjoyed some sales because they are all bigger markets with more slip availability, etc. But, America is not like Europe right now. Then you can talk about boat designs and their comparisons. One design race boats sell to people who live in areas where that sport is popular and that is usually close to larger metropolitan areas. For racers, one design is fun and it weeds out some of the problems of handicap racing. Everyone is racing the same boat, with the same sails, same equipment, same rules and believe it or not, that keeps the cost, relatively speaking, down in comparison to handicap racing where you can spend lots of money on sails and gear that seems to have no boundaries. Like the guy with the most money wins. Unfortunately boating is getting expensive again. Too expensive. Yachting, back in the early days of wooden vessels were a rich man's sport. To be brief, it was the likes of Everette Pearson and his Pearson Triton 28, one of the first successful, fiberglass boats with off shore quality and family affordability, who got sailing into the hands of the common man. He put one in the NY Boat Show and sold a great deal more than he thought he'd sell and so then he had to build a bunch of boats. Others followed and boats started popping up all over the U.S. because they were affordable. Now it is getting to the point where new boats are getting out of reach for many - and of course a place to put them and the costs associated with them doesn't help. That is why the used market is much stronger in the U.S. than the new market. But, it all starts with our economy, which has improved in the last 8 years a great deal, but it is not like Europe and it is not like the 70's. There are a lot of sailors who have no desire to race a J/Boat, but rather want a cruising boat and many who don't care if they don't sail all that well. There is a lot of brand identity that has existed with boaters. J/Boat owners, it has been proven, have mostly worked their way up the J/Boat line. At one time O'Day Yachts was the most popular production boat in the U.S. and they had boats to learn on from small day sailors up along a thread of boats into the 40-foot range to accommodate their customers with their brand from small to large. There are many people who do that with the Hunter line. Their first boat is a Hunter and they like it and buy another and maybe another. Brand identification works. Some people will venture out of that box and try another boat and find that when they get in a boat that sails differently and like it and then jump ship to another brand. Or their priorities change. Perhaps they get exposed to the racing scene and have fun with it and want to join. Or the other way - they get their taste of cruising and get out of the racing game. And some stick with both. Boat selection and comparisons is another topic. There's something for everyone, if you can afford it.
News flash: cool fast boats sell.
- Thread starter Jackdaw
- Start date
Should have put real racer in quotes. Go visit Sailing Anarchy for the definition I intended for "real racer."
Real racer = someone who buys a boat with the express intention of campaigning it regularly, maybe 25% non-racing sailing. Not a real racer = someone who who buys a boat to recreational sail upwards of 70% of the time, and race occasional club or regional races.
Is that a fair representation?
Is that a fair representation?
Not sure there is one simple definition, what 'real racing' is will depend on the the person, their goals, and the opportunities presented at their venue. My 'racing' is as real as I can make it. My friend is the J/70 world champion. He buys new sails for EVERY regatta. His definition is different.
Or we can take the simplistic way out and go with the 'sailing anarchy' model.
I guess this thread is going to go on like the bull market.
I wish we would get away from racer vs. cruiser language. You don't have to race to appreciate a boat that performs. Sailing is a kinetic sport. I am not a real racer by any definition. I don't want to go sailing on a boat that can't get out of it's own way. A dog is no fun to sail and is frustrating. I'd rather go for a swim.
I wish we would get away from racer vs. cruiser language. You don't have to race to appreciate a boat that performs. Sailing is a kinetic sport. I am not a real racer by any definition. I don't want to go sailing on a boat that can't get out of it's own way. A dog is no fun to sail and is frustrating. I'd rather go for a swim.
Yea. In this case as well, @Brian S 's definition is close.... a 'real' racer sails to race/train their boat 95%+ of the time. I know lots of owners who never take their boat out unless its to race. The more you sail for pleasure (and I do 50% of the time I guess) the more creature comforts you put up with on the race course.
True. My "real racer" posture hasn't changed since I sold the J24 after 30 years of owning it and racing it both locally and campaigning it elsewhere. Replaced with the First 310 which was a compromise between creature comforts and performance. And, if there are two boats on the lake, I'm racing!
The FIRST series have always been very good at that; striking a balance between race and cruise. This really because true when IRC replaced IOR allowing the ratings world to settle down, and the 40.7, 36.7, and then the First 40 starting winning everything in sight, on a boat a family could spend a week on in style.True. My "real racer" posture hasn't changed since I sold the J24 after 30 years of owning it and racing it both locally and campaigning it elsewhere. Replaced with the First 310 which was a compromise between creature comforts and performance. And, if there are two boats on the lake, I'm racing!
That being said, they are not true raceboats! Funny world we live in.
I LOVE the creature comforts of crewing in a Thistle! The wire vang dragging across your scalp. The diamond stays janking your knuckles for a spin pole end-for-end. The narrow gunwale you get to perch on. The centerboard trunk that you bark your shins on... I could go on.
Truth is, when I am in reasonable shape, crewing on a Thistle is actually fun. We were talking about it, and the joke amongst Thistlers is that road bicycle riders make good Thistle sailors, 'cos we're already used to perching on narrow, hard bike saddles....
"And this is a problem, how?" asks my IRA.
As in most things in life, the definitions are not dichotomous, rather they fall on a continuum. Some folks are just more competitive than others in any arena. That's fine, we need those folks. We also need folks at the other end of the continuum. Some sail to compete, some compete to sail. In my racing days, I was clearly in the latter category.
My bigger concern is the attitude that the extremes of the continuum bring to the sport. When I listen to Lightning sailors refer to Flying Scots, as Flying Scuds and belittle their owners or OD sailors refer to handicap sailors as "PHRF Wankers" I cringe as they are bringing nothing to the sport and are harming it by causing unnecessary divisions within the sport. It also makes it more difficult for builders to innovate, if you can't move folks away from J Boats, then you can't stay in business.
While a little good natured ribbing is fine, I agree that if taken too far its bad for the sport.
Regarding your last point; you for sure can survive in the race-boat business with J/boats around, the trick is to not compete head-to-head with them in a market segment they started! That was my point with the Capri 22 and 25, aimed DIRECTLY at the j/22 and j/24. In my opinion that was stupid. With those fleet growing and doing fine, very few racers would opt out of a growing fleet to buy the first model of an unproven boat on their lake. Sorry never happen.
Look a the success of the VX1, the viper, the Fareast 28r, and the Melges models as perfect examples of how to market where J-boats is not.
Catalina never learned this; indeed creating the Capri 23.5 that was so much like a Melges 24 (used a hull as a mold!) that Megles successfully sued and got an injunction against them, forcing them to stop building it.
Setting aside the controversy about the Sea Nymph story, this article by Brian Hancock identifies some short comings of media coverage about sailing. Sailing is dangerous, not exciting.
https://www.sailfeed.com/2017/10/is...=textlink&utm_campaign=enewsletter_SAIL171101
https://www.sailfeed.com/2017/10/is...=textlink&utm_campaign=enewsletter_SAIL171101
I would like to know what these incentives are, so i could use them. So far I did no find any.
At least in the US, if the boat has sleeping quarters, cooking facilities, and a head, then it qualifies as a second home and the mortgage interest is deductible on Schedule A of the 1040. Of course you are only allowed 1 second home, so choose between the interest on the camp, the boat, or the ocean side villa.
Yes, me too!!I would like to know what these incentives are, so i could use them. So far I did no find any.
Maybe for cat, but a $50K tri will sail circles round that Pogo. A big cat is just a flat sailing cruiser. They don't build cats as weekend racers. There are a very few narrow trailerable cats with cabins. They do tend to be fast. There was a brand that built an 8ft wide cat with a cabin. Test sail hit 12 knots on a beam reach. (not Gougeon brothers)