New Dock Lines versus Older Dock Lines
- Thread starter Rasselas36
- Start date
Well, then it's probably New England Ropes. I heard somewhere that WM owns NER. However, WM has been bringing a lot of Chinese stuff in....
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,230
Yes Jviss... that is one of the problems. Why I suggested that boat owners know the line specifications and not just buy what is on sale or in a pretty wrapper. While WM is a good resource and do a good job of warrantee there is a buyer beware issue here. The line breaks I do not think WM will help repair your boat.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,230
I buy that way as well. Have also found great line at a local rigging company that sells to the logging industry. Great line at non-marine prices.
http://www.westechrigging.com/
http://www.westechrigging.com/
I looked at an anchor kit for a stern anchor, which was West Marine brand and it was of very poor quality. I was surprised it was that bad. I just got a WM catalog which confirms my suspicion that WM wants to be in the clothing business. I think their branding is to have a nautical image in order to sell clothing to non boaters. That's a much bigger market than anchor buyers and allows buyers to appear to participate in the "Active Lifestyle." I've posted before that the vast majority of the public don't really want to go outside, where there are bugs, they can get a sunburn and might not be able to use their precious devices. WM has to deal with the world as it is, not how they wish it would be.
I've done considerable instrumented (load cell) testing of dock lines in moderate storm conditions. The biggest problem with doubling lines, other than chafe, is that the kines will NEVER share the load equally. One is always stiffer than the other, either because it is older or because of differences in weave. There is nearly always a better way.
a. Change the angle at least a little. Even if they must go the same cleat, anchor them to point separated on the dock by a few feet. In this way they have a much better chance of sharing load.
b. Spring lines. Every boat that is properly prepared for a storm will have 2 springs on each side. Even when you think they are not bearing load, they reduce surging so much, they reduce the load on the bow and stern lines by nearly 50%.
No matter what the wind direction, the boat is nearly always supported by more lines than you think in more dynamic ways than you think. You need to sit on the boat in gale conditions, from several directions, to begin to understand the interplay. For example, the most severe forces are generally associated with winds at odd angles, not straight on the beam, because the keel prevent rapid moment to the side. It is usually the fore-aft horsing that does the damage, and that is what springs can stop.
a. Change the angle at least a little. Even if they must go the same cleat, anchor them to point separated on the dock by a few feet. In this way they have a much better chance of sharing load.
b. Spring lines. Every boat that is properly prepared for a storm will have 2 springs on each side. Even when you think they are not bearing load, they reduce surging so much, they reduce the load on the bow and stern lines by nearly 50%.
No matter what the wind direction, the boat is nearly always supported by more lines than you think in more dynamic ways than you think. You need to sit on the boat in gale conditions, from several directions, to begin to understand the interplay. For example, the most severe forces are generally associated with winds at odd angles, not straight on the beam, because the keel prevent rapid moment to the side. It is usually the fore-aft horsing that does the damage, and that is what springs can stop.
Notice that they redesigned some of the stores so that you have to weave through the clothing to get to anything? That's enough to make me ignore all of the clothing on principle. I will never buy MW clothes.
I'm also seeing a lot of WM brand stuff that is honestly, several tiers down. Disappointing when it pushes better products out.
Some of the stuff is good. The PCA Gold is a deal when it is on sale.
It was more than 10 years ago when I met a board member from WM who told me the company wanted to be a "boutique" boat store, specializing in outdoor apparel. They had no desire to remain in the boat chandlery business.
It would have been nice to know this before they had decimated the marine chandlery business by putting all the others out of business, like Wallyworld did to their competitors. Funny thing is, unlike Walmart, they were more expensive than the mom & pop stores they put out of business, and still everybody pranced right up to the trough and helped them take over.
Now we're gonna pay for it with fewer and fewer items we need in stock locally, that we can get when we need it, rather than a day or two after an online purchase.
This one is on the boating public. They (and myself, at times) did this to themselves.
It would have been nice to know this before they had decimated the marine chandlery business by putting all the others out of business, like Wallyworld did to their competitors. Funny thing is, unlike Walmart, they were more expensive than the mom & pop stores they put out of business, and still everybody pranced right up to the trough and helped them take over.
Now we're gonna pay for it with fewer and fewer items we need in stock locally, that we can get when we need it, rather than a day or two after an online purchase.
This one is on the boating public. They (and myself, at times) did this to themselves.
Thank you for sharing your insight and knowledge. I have made note of these tips and will certainly apply them when my boat is repaired.
Hindsight is always 20/20. "In the beginning"...back when some of us (now) old geezers were just getting into "adult boating" (like the late 70s & 80s when we were finally making enough $$$ to buy our own boats), if it wasn't for WM we wouldn't have much of any of the "stuff" that we have come to take for granted. For example, there was ONE (count 'em: ONE) chandlerey in all of San Francisco, and it was buried deep in the financial district, about as far away from boaters as could be. I went in there once, and it was like going into a museum: cotton sails and hemp. OK, OK, hemp and SF?
I am NOT an apologist for what WM has become, and I agree it doesn't bode well for availability of gear in the future, unless the M&Ps come back, which they well might.
However, if it weren't for WM in their startup mode and purpose and their heyday, many of us would never have had access to the materials that they sold.
For many decades they served a very, very useful purpose, and I, for one, am grateful that Randy got his start.
What they have become is atrocious. But we had it while it lasted.
I have moved from SF to BC. They closed all the WMs in Canada a year or so ago. Local chandleries (sp?) are now doing quite well. There's Trotac in Victoria, and even a small reasonable one here near my local town, in Duncan. I can get everything I need even from the small chandlerey in my marina although I have to wait a day or two.
I'm saving my WM catalogs - lots of great stuff in there. I read and reread all the WM Advisors and learned an awful lot from them.
They sure served their purpose.
For those dolts who don't like to go outside, good on them! Keeps the anchorages from filling up!
Downside is the ones who do are in kayaks and SUPs and don't know maritime rules worth a darn!
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,230
They may be the ones always being discussed on channel 16.
"Blue kayak seen floating near south west corner of Lopez Island. All boats in vicinity keep a lookout for swimmers in the water. "
One NW resource might be Fisheries Supply in Seattle. They do a big online local business. https://www.fisheriessupply.com/
The on-line part is a big part of it too. They will do well on clothing (because people like to see it and try it on), heavy and bulky items (shipping is expensive), and impulse items.
A few days ago I needed parts for a Beckson deck plate; now they carry only WM brand. So I ordered on line, and I still don't have it.
So what do you do about it? The local hardware store is starting to sell more marine stuff, so I try to encourage that by always going there first. If there is a local chandler, use it.
By doubling up, I meant I had two lines to each cleat on the boat. they each went to separate pilings/cleats. See picture below.