Puzzle me this: Marinas, Boat Yards

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Aug 10, 2013
32
Cal 2-25 aka 25 MKII Portsmouth
I dunno. A smart business woman buys less expensive and only puts into it what she wants or needs. I could have bought a boat with bells and whistles. But I wouldn't need half of it. What I do need isn't Mercedes level upgrades. I think the idea that doing the work and not getting paid is possible but here's the thing: no one has really talked to me to determine if I've got the cash or not. I own my own business and since folks are always getting divorced, I'm in no shortage of work.

An assumption on the type of boat seems shortsighted at best and stupid at worst. If I wanted to spend a load of money I wouldn't be calling them. I'd have a 400k Hanse, and likely not know the difference between leeward and windward. And I'd have a captain for hire. And I'd sail it maybe twice a year.

I chose this boat because she was small (important for a first time buyer - if your going to hit things, hit with small things), well taken care of, and was appropriate for her purpose: some cruising, some racing. She points very well. She's fast. I had her doing 9 kts at one point. I like to buy used. The only car I haven't bought used is the one I designed and had shipped over. She's one of two I have parked in my driveway. The other one is a luxury too.

It kind of reminds me of the random story you hear about celebrities not being served somewhere because they look poor and the store looks foolish afterward.

I think I'm more apt to believe the sailor who said that its the dregs unless you can find a pearl. That probably is why the boating industry on a whole is suffering. If these farts got their act together, treated people decently, did good work, and got the idea in their head that if you want to make money, treat people right then we'd all be using their services for something.

Ex. While the service department at my marina blows monkeys, the sales does not. Go figure. We needed a part recently and sales couldn't get it in time but called all over to other marinas, found it, arranged it, and didn't make a dime. If sales had had it, the price would have been more, but we paid less. I'll buy from him in the future.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,763
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
A boat yard I contacted who does all the work I seek questioned it based on the "market value" of the boat. Thanks
They may be the good actors in your story. To me it sounds like an honest assessment. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it, or the yard should refuse the work order but they may be giving you good advice. If you are sure of what you want, and aren't concerned with the economics, tell them that. If you and the the yard can agree on a price then you should be able to make a deal. If they can't give a firm price it's because they understand that they could run into significant cost overruns. You should understand what those could be.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,139
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I’ve read this entire thread and commiserate with your frustration. Boat yards are notorious for bad service, both when providing estimates as well as finishing the work.

The “trick” is to avoid giving ANYONE the option to do the work as THEY see fit.

YOU need, and should be required to, provide as DETAILED a description of not only what, but HOW you want to work to be done.

If this is your first boat, it might be harder to do than if you had some experience.

DIY for a boat your size is not a burdensome task. Try these comments, understanding that yours is a basic list, but…


Painted – unless you know what you’re doing, quite frankly: WHAT kind of paint? Really…Awlgrip or some other paint. YOU need to be specific. MUCH, much more specific. You could also do this with some DIY elbow grease: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=117266
Anchor light – You have a 25 foot boat. Get two friends, drop the mast and wire it up.
Auto bilge – you can do this yourself. I’ve done it on a 34 foot boat. It’s two, three or four wires from a battery. Do you want a bilge pump with an integrated switch, a separate pump and float switch, or a diaphragm pump? You need to be more specific. There would be NO WAY to be able to quote on your wish list.
Better cabin lighting – What’s better? Do you have a specific design? Do you know whether you want LEDs or regular dome lights? Fluorescent or halogen or LEDs?? Again specificity counts.
Invertor/sufficient batteries to power the CPAP that keeps my boyfriend from keeping me awake – As mentioned in a prior response, you need to have designed the electrical system and to provide the yard the quantity and size of the batteries and the wiring and switching system you need. Without even the amperage draw of the CPAP machine, no one could ever quote on a vague “load” to even be able to begin to quote on this wish list.
Some storage – huh? Cut a hole and fill it with teak hardware.
The instrument displays have seen better days and aren't lit – So, “What do you want me to do?” to be able to quote?
Rebed the starboard side windows that leak – This, too, is a DIY. If not, do you have a source for replacements? Do you want the same aluminum frame or will bolted in ports answer your desire? Lots of options here for you.
Get rid of the companionway slat and replace it with doors – go to www.zarcor.com – a lot cheaper buying, even less expensive if you DIY. Personally, doors on a Cal 25 make NO sense, but if that’s what you want, then research it.
Replace the deck hatch and insulation which leak – Where do they leak? What work is required to repair this?
And possibly mount a GPS so I can stop screwing with a handheld – A 25 foot boat? Really. Please look at the West Marine catalog, they have many solutions for you that do not require a yard to fix.

My guess is that any yard would laugh at your lack of specifications.

Regardless of your gender, I suggest that you spend some time to get more specific about your requirements and to assist anyone who is quoting on your work to even begin to be able to price it out, for starters.

Your CPAP requirements will require a hefty battery bank and good charging for a quality electrical system. There have been many skippers here who have posted on their systems to support such CPAP equipment. You might consider a search on CPAP to find earlier posts. This is life critical, and will require a lot of thought about how to support this, all the way from a good charger to a solar system. Electrical ain’t easy for many, but is satisfying once you get the hang of it and you can describe what it is and how you want to control it. A basic difference is: Are you plugged in all the time or do you want to anchor out? The answer to this will end up with two totally different electrical systems.

Good luck, hope you find what you’re looking for. Also hope you can get more specific, which will be the key to getting your answer.


And a personal visit, in lieu of emails, may go a loong way for you.
 
Aug 10, 2013
32
Cal 2-25 aka 25 MKII Portsmouth
@Stu

You make hefty assumptions. I didn't dissertate on the details on my list cause I'm not seeking a quote HERE. Dial it back.

You proceed like I'm twirling my curls with my finger in my mouth going, "um, like, I'd like some doors on my, like, companionway".

Actually on my CAL it does make sense for the way we use her. But you've never sailed with us so you wouldn't know. But I forgive you that judgmental transgression. For example, we cruise. And we have a cute Boston with a pushed in face - that means its hard for her to breathe when its hot, so having doors with screens means I'm more secure when I leave her in the boat knowing she has sufficient air blowing in with out bugs, like the deer fly swarm we picked up last weekend. Air + keeping the bugs out without weighing a roll of screen down with soup cans and looking like ghetto cruisers, and ease of getting on deck if necessary without having to go fishing for said soup cans - yet deters theft because there is no gaping whole inviting nosey marina theives ----- completely without a bit of sense, clearly.

And let me make it a little more specific for you - I've tried by telephone and email. I suppose going down and flashing my boobs wouldn't hurt. They would need to respond to me to get into a back and forth conversation about all of the options and choices and why I want A over B. I guess I could just grab me a catalog and make them the part list. But that would seem to be part of "service".

That said, for many of you, I appreciate the encouragement and the BF and I have talked about your posts and some things we can do and might be willing to do. And bartering for bread can't hurt on the more complicated or monotonous things. For others: your "folks" and salty. We get it. Not sure that's helpful though.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,139
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Sorry for taking what you posted as maybe not what you meant. :) Actually, it was all I had to go on. If you do have those details, then i apologize for making assumptions.

That said, if a yard was to do that work, it'd cost at least four times what it would cost you to DIY. If you got the deep pockets, go for it, but, as I suggested, you don't need to detail them for us, it'd just be a lot easier for us to help you if you did.

Good luck.
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,718
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
@Stu

You make hefty assumptions. I didn't disserte on the details on my list cause I'm not seeking a quote HERE. Dial it back.

You proceed like I'm twirling my curls with my finger in my mouth going, "um, like, I'd like some doors on my, like, companionway".

Actually on my CAL it does make sense for the way we use her. But you've never sailed with us so you wouldn't know. But I forgive you that judgmental transgression.
The solution is simple. You are new to this environment and complaining about it, and arguing with people on this forum, is not going to change the way things are. Your challenge is to to find a way around your problem. There are people out there who will do the work you want and do it well at a reasonble price. You just have to find them.
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,718
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Another thought: Boats are not like cars. If your Toyota breaks down you always have a dealer to find you the right part. It doesn't work that way with boats - especially older boats. With an older boat, you are on your own and you have to get creative to make repairs. That is why your marina does not want the job. It takes them too much time to figure out the best way to do the job. You are on your own and the sooner you come to grips with that, the easier things will go. If you want car dealer like service, you need to buy a late model boat.
 
Aug 10, 2013
32
Cal 2-25 aka 25 MKII Portsmouth
@higgs

Arguing? I thought I was discussing. Volume must a bit too high on your end.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,139
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Oddly enough, you added significantly enough to your last post after I did mine.

Keep your bobs to yourself. Telephone and email is as impersonal as it gets. Only way I've been able to deal with boat yards is to find the yard manager, not the owners, and go discuss things with him/her.

Two hatchboards on a Cal 25 don't need no doors...and you could do it with some plastic and screening material to keep your doggy happy. Most folks I know on this board could whip these up in an afternoon, without power tools, and no ghetto look either.

Good luck.
 

higgs

.
Aug 24, 2005
3,718
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Good luck to you, NH. I like the idea of buying an older boat and fixxing her up and have sailed many a year based on that philosophy. If the boat yard ain't gonna do it, and you don't want to, you gotta get creative. My point.
 
Jun 3, 2004
71
Hunter 290 Tampa, FL
NHSailing, I don't think this is about you being female at all. A boat yard is going to screw you over whether you're male or female; showing your boobs to the estimator and yard monkey is just going to slow down the process of upgrading your boat until the yard monkey picks his jaw back up and goes back to sub-standard work with the cheapest parts they can source.

I don't think Stu was far off the mark; Based on the list you provided in your original post, we don't have a lot to go on- he was asking you to be more specific about how you wanted your boat modified, and trying to point out that boat yards will do EXACTLY what you ask them to do- No more, no less. If you give them a vague requirement ("Some storage"), they will install something that takes LOTS of labor for little purchasing price (think- cockpit coaming cubbies), and charge you an outrageous amount for it.

I've given your list a quick once-over; If I were balancing yard work versus DIY, I'd seriously consider what I could do myself versus what I'd pay a 'trained professional' to tackle. Using $80/hour as the going labor rate, here's how I'd ROUGHLY estimate your punch-list:

"Painted" - Most boatyards will know how to estimate this easily; My guess for your boat: $1100.

"Anchor light" - Parts (light, wiring, screws/brackets, etc): $100. Labor: If mast is up at start of project, 4 hours ($320). Mast down, 2.5 ($200).

"Auto bilge" - Parts (pump, switch, wiring, auto/man switch, connectors...): $95. Labor: 2 hours ($160).

"Better cabin lighting" - Define 'better'... If better means 'More', then fixtures+labor = ~$150 each. If better means 'relocated' then it's just labor and wiring- Figure ~$80 per fixture.

"Inverter/sufficient batteries to power the CPAP that keeps my boyfriend from keeping me awake" - This is a tough one, as I don't know the energy required to power a CPAP. A previous poster seemed to think 3 group-27 batteries would do it, along with powering all your other on-board loads. The simplest (cheapest) way I can estimate this is... parts (3 battery boxes + sturdy mounts, heavy guage wiring/lugs to connect them, an inverter to power the CPAP, 3 new deep-cycle batteries (I wouldn't mix old batt's with new - bad juju...), mounting brackets/braces: $750. Labor: 8-10 hours ($800). Note that this does NOT address recharging the batteries after a day or two-- A solar or wind solution for this could easly run another $2K.

Some storage - Too vague to estimate, though your follow-up posts indicate converting a settee into drawers/shelves/cubbies. Pulling numbers from thin air... Wood: $200 Labor: 15 hours (think: measure, measure again, cut, dry-fit, adjust, dry fit again, adjust, dry-fit again (it fits!), tack together, stain, install, adjust drawer slides/cabinet hinges... it goes on. 15 hours is probably conservative.) - $1200.

"The instrument displays have seen better days and aren't lit" - Do the instruments work? If so, there's probably a slot in them somewhere for backlighting. Replace the bulbs. (Parts: $10; Labor: $50)

"Rebed the starboard side windows that leak" - Parts (new sealant): $15. Labor (4 hours/window, 2 windows): $640.

"Get rid of the companionway slat and replace it with doors" - Parts (Wood, hinges, latches, screws, doorstops): $250. Labor (design, measure, cut, dry-fit, adjust, dry-fit, install hardware, stain, install...) 6 hours ($480).

"Replace the deck hatch and insulation which leak" - Assuming replacement instead of reparing existing hatch... Parts: $750. Labor: 3.5 hours ($300)

"And possibly mount a GPS so I can stop screwing with a handheld" - Parts: ~$700 for a good small-boat unit. Labor: If there's power near the mounting location, 1 hour. If not, 3 hours.


SO, Assuming maximum work...

Painted: $1100
Anchor light: $420
Auto bilge: $255
Better cabin lighting (3 new fixtures installed): $450
Invertor/sufficient batteries to power the CPAP that keeps my boyfriend from keeping me awake: $1550
Some storage: $1200
The instrument displays have seen better days and aren't lit: $60
Rebed the starboard side windows that leak: $655
Get rid of the companionway slat and replace it with doors: $730
Replace the deck hatch and insulation which leak: $1050
And possibly mount a GPS so I can stop screwing with a handheld: $940.

1100+420+255+450+1550+1200+60+655+730+1050+940=... $8410. Add solar/wind charging for the CPAP requirement, and it goes over $10.5K.

Please note that these estimates are my "If I were planning to put my boat into the yard" figures; My personal experience indicates that my planning figures for boatyard adventures typically fall short of actual costs by about 40%... 8410x1.4=$11,774. Then there are taxes... 8% sound good to you? 11175x1.08=12,716.

If I were running a boat yard, I'd be VERY concerned about ANY customer requesting $12K worth of upgrades to a $7.5K boat (avg price for a Cal 2-25). I (as a yard owner) can't recoup my loss if you abandon it.


NOW, if I were to discount all the labor costs by doing the work myself...

"Painted" - You're probably not getting around this one; My guess for your boat: $1100.

"Anchor light" - Parts (light, wiring, screws/brackets, etc): $100.

"Auto bilge" - Parts (pump, switch, wiring, auto/man switch, connectors...): $95.

"Better cabin lighting" - Add 3 fixtures: $150.

"Inverter/sufficient batteries to power the CPAP that keeps my boyfriend from keeping me awake" - This is a tough one, as I don't know the energy required to power a CPAP. A previous poster seemed to think 3 group-27 batteries would do it, along with powering all your other on-board loads. The simplest (cheapest) way I can estimate this is... parts (3 battery boxes + sturdy mounts, heavy guage wiring/lugs to connect them, an inverter to power the CPAP, 3 new deep-cycle batteries (I wouldn't mix old batt's with new - bad juju...), mounting brackets/braces: $750. Note that this does NOT address recharging the batteries after a day or two-- A solar or wind solution for this could easly run another $2K.

Some storage - Too vague to estimate, though your follow-up posts indicate converting a settee into drawers/shelves/cubbies. Pulling numbers from thin air... Wood: $200

"The instrument displays have seen better days and aren't lit" - Do the instruments work? If so, there's probably a slot in them somewhere for backlighting. Replace the bulbs. (Parts: $10)

"Rebed the starboard side windows that leak" - Parts (new sealant): $15.

"Get rid of the companionway slat and replace it with doors" - Parts (Wood, hinges, latches, screws, doorstops): $250.

"Replace the deck hatch and insulation which leak" - Assuming replacement instead of reparing existing hatch... Parts: $750.

"And possibly mount a GPS so I can stop screwing with a handheld" - Parts: ~$700 for a good small-boat unit.

The in-my-head math on this is $4120, plus my time. The intangible is, I get to know my boat a WHOLE lot better.

I MAY have forgotten to carry a one, but the math on this seems pretty clear to me.

--Jon
 
Dec 26, 2012
359
MacGregor 25 San Diego
I dont work in the boating industry, but I do a lot of custom work that is somewhat similar in nature as far as the estimating process goes, so I can kinda see the other side of this.

I OFTEN get emails and messages from people with a list of things they want done, kinda like the list you posted. To sit down and create an actual detailed estimate for every one of these is very time consuming, and 9 times out of 10 the persons idea of what it should cost is a tiny fraction of what it will actually cost. This means at least 90% of the time the time I spend making that estimate is completely wasted. The other 10% of the time I at least have a chance at getting the job, but even then it's not guaranteed

Because of this if I see a big job that seems like it might not make fiscal sense (which it seems yours looks like) or there's some indication that the person doesn't know the depths of what they are asking for then I'll generally reply with a very rough idea of what it might cost, and explain that what the person is asking for is very complex/time consuming/whatever and try to gauge whether they are actually willing to commit to such a job. This isn't me trying to shoo away business, it's me trying to avoid wasting time on a job that I'll never get, and also making sure you know what you're in for.

Here's an example. Last week I got an email from a girl asking for a price on a custom roll cage for a jeep. This is something I do. However she didn't specify any kind of design criteria, only the vehicle model which in pristine stock form is worth less than $3k, and even very modified ones dont sell for much more. Then at the end she mentioned that she was hoping to surprise her boyfriend with it as a gift. Keeping with the absolute basics of what she was asking for we're talking about a several thousand dollar job....that's one hell of a surprise gift, and depending on design it could be a lot more. Also add in that it's a custom job and generally the customer has their own ideas on how they want it done, it's not really a straightforward request. Not to mention that there's no way I could actually estimate this job without seeing the vehicle ahead of time. I was seeing all sorts of red flags here. I told her all this and gave her some very rough numbers on the minimum she might be looking at. Not surprisingly I haven't heard back.

From what you posted about the boat yard pointing out the value of your boat and the expense of the jobs I tend to wonder if they aren't intentionally trying to turn you away, but instead are actually being honest business people and are making sure you know what you're asking for, and that the bill could be higher than you might have imagined. If you simply walked away because they questioned your motives, then maybe you are the one who's being a little too hasty. Sometimes you have to be willing to participate in a discussion so that both people know where the other is at. There's nothing wrong with wanting to fix up an old boat, but the business owner has to know that you are prepared for what it's going to cost.
 
Aug 20, 2010
1,399
Oday 27 Oak Orchard
Hello NHsailing. From my own experience I can tell you your list is going to be a kill joy if you contract it out. My own journey (http://forums.oday.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=123244) began with little knowledge about a project of this magnitude. In the end when people state, "I didn't know Oday was back in business," the work is worth the effort. Aquiring the skill to do everything you want is not difficult or time consuming. I too work full time and own a home. A few hours a day are all that is required. That and a desire. The folks here at SBO are always a willing source of encouragement and expertise as well as test subjects for the methods used. We are sailors first and gender has no bearing. Zeehag is a frequent contributor and just as competent as anyone. There are many others as well. You would help balance our wacky world here and could provide more female perspective. Welcome aboard sailor.
 
Apr 1, 2012
147
Pearson 424 Charleston, SC
NHSailing,
Maybe your approach to getting the work done needs to be tweaked a little. Have you considered approaching the yard with one or two of the projects, maybe a smaller one first? This could begin to build a working relationship with the yard, demonstrate that your are serious about having the work completed and paying for the work performed. Maybe use the service department, you stated that they were good to work with, to get the ball rolling. Discuss with them the appropriate replacement instruments displays and if you ordered the instruments through the marina will they be able to install for you. Be realistic in the time frame so they can easily work it into their schedule. When that job is complete pick another, for example the auto bilge. Something that again uses the service dept as a "go between". I would think that if these small, easy projects are completed and paid for the yard would begin to see you as a "cash cow" and be very willing to do some of the larger projects you want done.
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
I read through all the posts in this thread up to this point and Andrew echoed my thoughts the best:
They may be the good actors in your story. To me it sounds like an honest assessment.
I think the yard was doing you a favor. I hope in time you to appreciate, as Andrew said, that they were being honest. What did their honesty get them?
 
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