Installation angle limits??????
- Thread starter woodster
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So, it looks like the new one is longer but has a tighter angle, which should be the same "target" into the hull. Am I reading this right?
Woody
It sure looks like a 15 degree strut like mine as doing the max angle is pretty common when the motor is that far back in the boat under the steps
I can only use 3 quarts of oil because it's maxed out but as it 43 years old it must be OK
It sure looks like a 15 degree strut like mine as doing the max angle is pretty common when the motor is that far back in the boat under the steps
I can only use 3 quarts of oil because it's maxed out but as it 43 years old it must be OK
if you look close you can see that the one is sitting on a different plane than the other one in the two differnt pics...
regards
woody
and that is what got me to looking at angles in the first place.... i pulled the dip stick out and a little oil came out of the dip stick hole....i pumped out the oil and also found that i had 3/4 of a qt too much in the crank case... so now before i change any thing else i am going to put the proper amount in there and see what happens.... even to taking the breather tube off the intake and looking for oil to come out..... because if it is to much angle it will act like a blender if the crank shaft is churning the crank case oil and cause it to foam and i don't want to go through a runaway engine because i have oil going it the cylinders ....if the problem is there i will just have to reset the strut and rework the shaft tub like you did....Woody
It sure looks like a 15 degree strut like mine as doing the max angle is pretty common when the motor is that far back in the boat under the steps
I can only use 3 quarts of oil because it's maxed out but as it 43 years old it must be OK
regards
woody
thanks every one for the in put ....going to take a break this week end and go to the gulf coast and give this time to soak in ...every one has been great with there advice and information when this is all said and done i will share what finally happen on this correction and course of action....this site is the best thing that has happened to sail boaters owners that want and need to stay active and maintain there sailing pleasures........
regards
woody
regards
woody
You never answered one of the early questions. It was pointed out that some drives have an offset/angle drive transmission. Is it possible your old drive had an angle drive and the new one doesnt? Could you get one?
If I were going to drill a new hole, I would try to align the prop shaft to the motor rather than the other way round, within reason. Even if that meant a different cutlass bearing. While some of these lil motors have survived high angles with short oil capacity, thats not optimal. I would prefer to see the engine at as low of an angle (close to level) as possible. If you ever went offshore and needed the engine, you might really appreciate the extra oil capacity as well as being able to keep it contained.
If I were going to drill a new hole, I would try to align the prop shaft to the motor rather than the other way round, within reason. Even if that meant a different cutlass bearing. While some of these lil motors have survived high angles with short oil capacity, thats not optimal. I would prefer to see the engine at as low of an angle (close to level) as possible. If you ever went offshore and needed the engine, you might really appreciate the extra oil capacity as well as being able to keep it contained.
no they are both the same in relation to angle of the coupling to shaft ...i checked on this yesterday and found out that they were available on the larger engines back in there hay day.....no so common on the smaller ones
yes your are correct on the oil capacity and the need to have it ...i too was concerned about the angle ....as for the Stearn tube i have concerns about the clearance of the shaft being too close to it... so if in the event i can not get the clearance i need i will change the tube..... this is just a small detour on my path to completion........
regards
woody
As the engine is tilted rearward from level, the oil collects further and further back in the sump, and eventually rises in the back to reach the spinning crankshaft. As the engine is sucking oil off the bottom of the pan and pumping it through the engine and up to the top of the head, some of the capacity in operation draws the level below what you find after the engine was shut down, and thus keeping it away from the crank.
But keep tilting it back and you can no longer keep the oil away from the crankshaft. The crank agitates and foams up the oil, over pressures the crankcase and starts spitting out oil any place it can. Your now forced to either reduce capacity, or the engine will do it for you. Keep trying to maintain the level on the stick and youll just keep cleaning up.
But the engine really should have all the oil capacity it came with. That many have survived with it reduced is not a good argument for not having it all in there. The real problems begin when you get offshore in a heavy pitching sea. If the engine is already so tilted you have to reduce capacity, and the oil is just under the crankshaft sitting in the slip, the moment it starts to pitch its going to start spitting oil again, only now you have less oil to lose.
Think about this. The engine was specified to accept an 8 degree tilt, 15 max. That means, therefore, that the engine could likely tolerate 15 degrees tilt without oil striking the crank. 8 degrees would allow 7 degrees of pitch before it occurred. Having the engine at 0 degrees (flat and level) would allow 15 degrees of pitch change without it spitting any oil at all. In fact you could probably pitch beyond 20 degrees without much trouble. At 16.5 you really have no wiggle room at all. If the boat were to pitch 20 degrees, you engine would have an effective tilt of 36.5 degrees, and you would probably lose your engine to oil starvation.
So, if your going to end up drilling a new hole anyway, perhaps you make some careful measurements and work to drop the engine lower so as to tilt it back as far forward as is humanely possible. Or, perhaps you can locate an angle drive transmission (that guy in Wisconsin?). Maybe between the two you could get the motor under 8 degrees, more toward true level.
But keep tilting it back and you can no longer keep the oil away from the crankshaft. The crank agitates and foams up the oil, over pressures the crankcase and starts spitting out oil any place it can. Your now forced to either reduce capacity, or the engine will do it for you. Keep trying to maintain the level on the stick and youll just keep cleaning up.
But the engine really should have all the oil capacity it came with. That many have survived with it reduced is not a good argument for not having it all in there. The real problems begin when you get offshore in a heavy pitching sea. If the engine is already so tilted you have to reduce capacity, and the oil is just under the crankshaft sitting in the slip, the moment it starts to pitch its going to start spitting oil again, only now you have less oil to lose.
Think about this. The engine was specified to accept an 8 degree tilt, 15 max. That means, therefore, that the engine could likely tolerate 15 degrees tilt without oil striking the crank. 8 degrees would allow 7 degrees of pitch before it occurred. Having the engine at 0 degrees (flat and level) would allow 15 degrees of pitch change without it spitting any oil at all. In fact you could probably pitch beyond 20 degrees without much trouble. At 16.5 you really have no wiggle room at all. If the boat were to pitch 20 degrees, you engine would have an effective tilt of 36.5 degrees, and you would probably lose your engine to oil starvation.
So, if your going to end up drilling a new hole anyway, perhaps you make some careful measurements and work to drop the engine lower so as to tilt it back as far forward as is humanely possible. Or, perhaps you can locate an angle drive transmission (that guy in Wisconsin?). Maybe between the two you could get the motor under 8 degrees, more toward true level.
On a 30' boat with the motor that far back is not possible to have a more level motor
If you look at other boats and scratch your head as to why they would install the motor under the kitchen sink?
It’s under the sink because it allows much more level install
If you look at other boats and scratch your head as to why they would install the motor under the kitchen sink?
It’s under the sink because it allows much more level install
This may be a dumb question, but are there aftermarket oil pans for these engines? I buy larger (500-800 hp) diesels for industrial applications on a regular basis, and there are usually options for different oil pans - sump forward, sump aft, larger/smaller capacities, etc. Any chance of a deep sump and pickup tube extension or longer replacement (dipstick, too)?
I like the way you think......
regards
woody
.....i could have a custom one made....but i think my best solution is to get it as level as i can ....because in ll this i think the main bearings and the clutch would suffer and ware sooner than later as most of the bearings are babbitt and not ball or roller ...and i am not sure how much side thrust they could handle...i even though about an external oil reserve.....
regards
woody
No disagreement from me. I'm just tossing it out there as a last resort, in case you're stuck with a bad, or even good-not-great, installation.
thanks for the concern that is a nice thing to give some one.....and like i said it is an option but me being as hard headed as i am
i will try to do it the correct way if i can ...i am pulling the engine back out of the hole this afternoon and am going to adjust the strut as much as i can and see if i need to cut out the old stern tube and put a new one in...if it only rubs in the exit out of th hull i may be able to modify that portion and be OK if not i will go the distance as i don't want any major work needed when i am in the water because i feel that when i go full time live aboard my finances will not be very strong ...not having the luxury of my shop to pick up small jobs here and there.... regards
woody
Unless the tube is REALLY BAD it should be fine
Rememberer my tube was FULL OF BLISTERS or i could have most likely made it work
From what you have said about having to add shims something is clearly different
As it worked without issue all this time i have to believe you just need understand what is different about the strut ,as struts are NEVER exactly the same
Some pictures of this would help me understand whats going on as its tough to see it right now
I would remove the rubber cutlass bearing if possible and replace it temporally with bronze bushings as it removes all the guess work
You may have to grind metal off the strut OR fiberglass off the hull to get things in a reasonable position
Just be real sure before you do this as it comes off pretty essy and is real hard to put back on
Rememberer my tube was FULL OF BLISTERS or i could have most likely made it work
From what you have said about having to add shims something is clearly different
As it worked without issue all this time i have to believe you just need understand what is different about the strut ,as struts are NEVER exactly the same
Some pictures of this would help me understand whats going on as its tough to see it right now
I would remove the rubber cutlass bearing if possible and replace it temporally with bronze bushings as it removes all the guess work
You may have to grind metal off the strut OR fiberglass off the hull to get things in a reasonable position
Just be real sure before you do this as it comes off pretty essy and is real hard to put back on
OK i have taken the strut back off and removed all the shim work....i have also taken the engine back out of the bay and will be putting things back on Tuesday next week as i have run out of time this week .....gotta make a trip to fair hope and help my buddy do a turn over on his boat he sold it this week so i will be gone all weekend and Monday and this trip is killing me because i would rather be working on my boat lol...so when i get back i will set things up and see what gives....my concern is that when i bolt the strut to the hull it will be out of alignment to the stern tube and i have to see if it will work without rubbing the prop shaft iUnless the tube is REALLY BAD it should be fine
Rememberer my tube was FULL OF BLISTERS or i could have most likely made it work
From what you have said about having to add shims something is clearly different
As it worked without issue all this time i have to believe you just need understand what is different about the strut ,as struts are NEVER exactly the same
Some pictures of this would help me understand whats going on as its tough to see it right now
I would remove the rubber cutlass bearing if possible and replace it temporally with bronze bushings as it removes all the guess work
You may have to grind metal off the strut OR fiberglass off the hull to get things in a reasonable position
Just be real sure before you do this as it comes off pretty essy and is real hard to put back on
also checked the flange on the shaft wit a protractor before i loosened any bolts and It read 16.5 degrees so i know i read the shaft angle correct ....i don't know if it is possible to get it to 10 or 12 degrees the way it is now but i sure would like to have the angle on the engine ...but i am afraid that the shaft is going to rub the stern tube ...i have even thought about reaming out the rear of the tube to get it to clear...but this is all speculation until i get back Tuesday .......again thanks for the help and insite.....
regards
woody
Have you considered placing the strut on the shaft but NOT bolting it in, and then lining things up to see where the strut SHOULD be? Good luck.
I understand what your saying, but only to a point. A 15 degree offset angle drive transmission would put this motor at 1.5 degrees from level just the way its set up now. A lil fiddling with that cutlass bearing and he might be able to widdle that 1.5 down even further.On a 30' boat with the motor that far back is not possible to have a more level motor
If you look at other boats and scratch your head as to why they would install the motor under the kitchen sink?
It’s under the sink because it allows much more level install
Most of these boats dont have the best propulsion designs. The parts are available, the engines and transmissions are certainly up to the task, but the boat manufacturers just too often choose to skimp on setting it up as optimally as they could.
I have never seen a small motor with with the angle or v-drive as they start doing it about 30 HP and above and even then its 8 degrees
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