Vestas 11th Hour Racing in collision.
- Thread starter Hayden Watson
- Start date
Why are you assuming that Vestas is totally at fault here? Was the vessel actively engaged in fishing and did it have proper lighting? Seriously, you need to get that "All sailboat racers are a menace!!" chip off your shoulder. Really, who knows at this point as I keep saying but, you need to lighten up and wait for the investigation. Then if it is found that Vestas was at fault, then you can nanny nanny boo boo all you want and do your "I was right!! Racers are a menace to ALL!!" victory lap......
If this happened in USA then I would agree with you...but this happened in a different part of the world with different rules and customs. Sure, all boaters, including fishermen should know the rules but they don't. In the 3rd world we have to assume all locals do not know a thing about the col-regs and what is right and wrong. Basically, we need to stay out of their way.
Yes, HK is a large modern city, but the fishing villages are still 3rd world and the fishermen are from the old days using old boats, just trying to catch enough fish to feed themselves and make a little profit off the extra fish they catch.
Yes, HK is a large modern city, but the fishing villages are still 3rd world and the fishermen are from the old days using old boats, just trying to catch enough fish to feed themselves and make a little profit off the extra fish they catch.
CB, I’ve been pretty clear that there is fault to go around. Here is what you need to understand because it is a recurring theme in regard to the Rules of Navigation: In an accident investigation fault is apportioned.
An inadequately or improperly lit fishing boat shares fault with a speeding sailboat racer who fails to keep a proper watch and take evasive action. Beyond that it was somebody’s brilliant idea to bring a race leg to conclusion in one of the worlds busiest areas of boat traffic, and do it at 0200. That will most certainly be a mitigating factor in determining who f’d up.
An inadequately or improperly lit fishing boat shares fault with a speeding sailboat racer who fails to keep a proper watch and take evasive action. Beyond that it was somebody’s brilliant idea to bring a race leg to conclusion in one of the worlds busiest areas of boat traffic, and do it at 0200. That will most certainly be a mitigating factor in determining who f’d up.
I would disagree here. Sailing vessels don't have special privileges. They are specified for right-of-way purposes, but it seems pretty clear that right-of-way is specifically designed to provide for harmony between vessels who have maneuverability and speed and those who don't, plus those with visibility restrictions or considerations. Sailboats, as a general category, are and will always be, reasonably singled out for all three of those considerations.
I can't imagine, that "careening" along on a sailboat, at 20 knots, 20 nm off shore, would ever be considered inherently a bad idea.
Those who choose to invest their time and money into boat ownership, commercial or pleasure, commit a fairly large portion of themselves. Add to that, the commitment it takes to venture out into an ocean, even just twenty miles off-shore at night and one should have a well developed sense that they are engaging in a serious activity that includes all kinda of traffic and obstacles and hazards. The rules of right-of-way are wise to include provisions for both parties to take responsibility for avoiding collision no matter who has right-of-way.
There is no small amount of experience on the part of the race captain and crew, and, I'm speculating here, I'm sure the fishing captain has plenty of hours on the ocean and knows the law.
If two boats collide in open ocean, it is horrible luck. There is likely to have occurred some laxness on someone's part too. Equipment fails that should have been maintained, years without incident often leaves captains thinking nothing could happen. There is so much that COULD have happened. It is an interesting exercise to speculate, but it is truly counter productive to cast blame.
I know, historically, people need to do that, though. With or without facts, we need to find someone at fault so we can move on without changing our own behavior as by-standers. We will rely upon officials of our social order to settle on cause and make regulations that restrict is even more so that we can complain about our loss of freedom that we actually give away by looking for blame rather than learning to regulate ourselves.
Sorry, got carried away there
- Will (Dragonfly)
It seems that the nature of the race dictates that it is impossible to predict the time of entry to a port, given that the leg is from Cape Town to Hong Kong. Could the finish line of the leg be located out in the ocean away from traffic? Sure, but that doesn't do much for the Sponsors, whom would like there to be a sense of drama when the boats are arriving in port. Perhaps Hong Kong is a lousy location to end this leg. Didn't the accident happen well off-shore (25 miles out)? I know that it sounds like the waters just outside Hong Kong are chaotic, but this does sound like a freak accident. Perhaps the Volvo race doesn't belong there afterall. Or perhaps daylight starts are acceptable in crowded waters, but finishes should be planned for areas that can be more completely controlled, since the time of finish can't be predicted.
Team Vestas does appear snakebit. But aside from their collision first with the reef and now this, I have not heard negative publicity about the Volvo race. Perhaps, I'm not paying attention. I have no problem if the event is dangerous for the participants. They are all full grown adults, all of them accepting the risks that come with the glory that they seek. I don't waste a second grieving for any of their misfortune. Innocent bystanders are a different story and we don't know the full story behind this collision yet, as far as I know. In general, though, I don't really feel a lot of sympathy, even for working folks who have risky occupations. Call me a horrible person, but dying is just the last act of life and we're all going to face it, some in more horrible ways than others. There is no guarantee for any of us that life will pass justifiably or in peace. If these "fishermen" didn't have lights or were doing something else that isn't strictly legal, I'm not going to have much sympathy for them. Right now, to me it is just a small tragedy without judgement either way until we learn more about it. If somebody is in the wrong, then I have no problem with any of them facing the consequence.
Team Vestas does appear snakebit. But aside from their collision first with the reef and now this, I have not heard negative publicity about the Volvo race. Perhaps, I'm not paying attention. I have no problem if the event is dangerous for the participants. They are all full grown adults, all of them accepting the risks that come with the glory that they seek. I don't waste a second grieving for any of their misfortune. Innocent bystanders are a different story and we don't know the full story behind this collision yet, as far as I know. In general, though, I don't really feel a lot of sympathy, even for working folks who have risky occupations. Call me a horrible person, but dying is just the last act of life and we're all going to face it, some in more horrible ways than others. There is no guarantee for any of us that life will pass justifiably or in peace. If these "fishermen" didn't have lights or were doing something else that isn't strictly legal, I'm not going to have much sympathy for them. Right now, to me it is just a small tragedy without judgement either way until we learn more about it. If somebody is in the wrong, then I have no problem with any of them facing the consequence.
To criticize these sailors as anything less that very skilled professionals is to not know them. Earlier in this leg the leg leader, Team Sun Hung Kai/Scallywag, had a MOB when the bowman was washed overboard with the boat doing 20 knots downwind. The crew was back aboard in 7 minutes. http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/vi...callywag-s-dramatic-man-overboard-moment.html
Not too many China Clippers sailing the high seas these days, from what I've seen. Nor unpowered freight carrying schooners plying the coastal waters of North America or Europe, either.
It just isn't a big thing for us on small pleasure craft to steer clear of real commercial traffic or even larger (than us), less maneuverable craft in a confined channel, and the silly rule that leads so many on sailing craft to assume they are the stand on vessel, when in fact they are not, needs to be changed. If a vessel under sail requires the priority, it can use the D flag or whistle signals easily enough (gee, there's even a thing called radio, today), so the rule that is so often misinterpreted, really need not be on the books.
You do realize that any special references to sailboats in the regs had to have come about after those days of working sailboats was already over.
To specify a sailboat as a stand on vessel means power boats are the give way vessel, not row boats or canoes or peddle boats. Power boats have been the primary commercial traffic for almost a hundred years now.
Sailboats are restricted in mobility because there are points to the wind they can't sail, they are restricted in their speed because power boats can run circles around them, they are restricted in their visibility because they heel with huge canvas walls across the leeward side. No power boat suffers from any of those issues.
I agree with capta, the regs are often misinterpreted and misunderstood. That is due mostly to laziness and bad advice on the part of the sailor who fails to apply critical thought to why the rules are the way they are.
- Will (Dragonfly)
I really doubt that the collision was caused by the racers assuming ROW over a commercial craft (or not interpreting the colregs correctly). Plain and simple, they were moving fast and didn't see the other boat. Fatigue could easily be a factor. The other boat not displaying lights (as Franklin says) is a good bet in my opinion. Aren't legit commercial boats lit up like a city? Do you think commercial boats that aren't legit are lit up? I don't think so. Do you think the waters around Hong Kong might be a little bit like the wild west, in that there are a lot of activities that fly under the radar at night? That would be my guess. Perhaps Volvo should be a little more careful about where they schedule their activities, but there is no guarantee for safety in this world, so I don't know where you go if your expectation is that nothing should ever go south, anywhere. Isn't a big part of the appeal is the extent to which we see athletes pushed to their limits? We can sit in our chairs and watch a video game of sailboat racing, perhaps.
Here is a link from the Volvo race committee.
I have had the opportunity to race through the night, just one night, Rest is difficult, vision is difficult. It is way to soon to comment on the events of the accident. All sailors know that you cannot see through head sails to see what is behind it. That has caused me some tight situations in daylight while well rested and alert.
http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/10867_Update-Vestas-11th-Hour-Racing-collision.html
I have had the opportunity to race through the night, just one night, Rest is difficult, vision is difficult. It is way to soon to comment on the events of the accident. All sailors know that you cannot see through head sails to see what is behind it. That has caused me some tight situations in daylight while well rested and alert.
http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/10867_Update-Vestas-11th-Hour-Racing-collision.html
Points to ponder:
1) colregs are the law in every state that is a U.N. member.
2)Mapfre reported dozens of fishboats unlit or poorly lit.( they were forewarned by the accident.
3) wooden boats have a poor radar return.
4) fishers are (in) famous for not following colregs. ( how often have you seen crabbers, gillnetters or lobster fishers violating the 50meter rule)
5) if Vestus had been a 40,000 ton frieghter they wouldn't have even noticed the collision.
6) if we stopped every sport that was dangerous to bystanders we would all be playing tiddley-winks
1) colregs are the law in every state that is a U.N. member.
2)Mapfre reported dozens of fishboats unlit or poorly lit.( they were forewarned by the accident.
3) wooden boats have a poor radar return.
4) fishers are (in) famous for not following colregs. ( how often have you seen crabbers, gillnetters or lobster fishers violating the 50meter rule)
5) if Vestus had been a 40,000 ton frieghter they wouldn't have even noticed the collision.
6) if we stopped every sport that was dangerous to bystanders we would all be playing tiddley-winks
Having racing sailboats barrel into a crowded harbour in the middle of the night is tantamount to NASCAR removing the guard rails.
20 miles from the harbour entrance. I often see freighters going that fast within 20 miles of Victoria and Vancouver. As do the B.C. ferries.
Quoting from article: https://www.google.com/amp/m.scmp.c...ers-speak-first-time-tragic-volvo-ocean?amp=1 "Race Control was unable to say what caused the accident. It is also not known if the fishing boat had its navigation lights turned on or was using Automatic Identification System."
30 nm from finish line.
If you were going to end a leg of your race near Hong Kong, how far out from the harbor would be reasonable? If you were just sailing past Hong Kong or a port city like Hong Kong, what would a reasonable off shore distance be to stand off?
I believe this is the fourth Volvo race that has sailed into or near Hong Kong. 30 nm is open ocean. There is no shore visible for another 15 miles of sailing, at least. This accident could have happened 100 nm off shore or 5 nm off shore. The chances increase as the density of the fishing fleet increases, so where's the line? This race is well publicised, even in China. Do these fishermen have no responsibility? Is it all on the committee? Could it not have been just a freak accident that no amount of planning or prep could have stopped?
If this accident had happened while approaching some tiny fishing village, instead of one of the largest in the world, wouldn't we be throwing around blame exactly the same way except, we couldn't say, "crowded" or "busiest". Instead, it would be, "tiny fishing boats", "poorly equipped fishing vessels". There would be some reason that should have made it "obvious" why the race committee should not have picked that port or why they should require their racers to reduce speed.
I look at the image of Vestas holed hull and wonder who was moving at what speed in what direction. It wasn't a small boat with 10 crew on board. Yet, they sank and Vesta survived to motor in under her own power.
24 knot winds, but the seas were not so great that Vestas, with that hole, couldn't help in the search and rescue efforts. Visibility was probably pretty good.
Were the fishermen running without lights? Where was the watch on the fishing boat? 10 crew aboard and they didn't see a 70' sailboat approaching from 5 miles out or better? Hong Kong isn't some back water third world village, they are as large and sophisticated as it gets. Why are the accusations, being tossed around, just aimed at the Volvo race? Doesn't the Hong Kong authorities, who allow unlit fishing boats with no radar detection, have some responsibility?
By the way, we don't actually know the fishing boat had no lights or radar. We don't know Vestas had lights or radar either. None of that information has been released. Was the fishing boat with 10 crew on board steel or wood. Why the hole above the waterline on a light weight composite hull, yet the fishing vessel sank. Did they overturn? Vestas had to have knocked them over, because it looks unlikely she holed them below the waterline. Maybe the fishermen were over crowded and overloaded. No information has been released yet.
But, we certainly seem to have no shortage of opinions about who's to blame.
- Will (Dragonfly)
30 nm from finish line.
If you were going to end a leg of your race near Hong Kong, how far out from the harbor would be reasonable? If you were just sailing past Hong Kong or a port city like Hong Kong, what would a reasonable off shore distance be to stand off?
I believe this is the fourth Volvo race that has sailed into or near Hong Kong. 30 nm is open ocean. There is no shore visible for another 15 miles of sailing, at least. This accident could have happened 100 nm off shore or 5 nm off shore. The chances increase as the density of the fishing fleet increases, so where's the line? This race is well publicised, even in China. Do these fishermen have no responsibility? Is it all on the committee? Could it not have been just a freak accident that no amount of planning or prep could have stopped?
If this accident had happened while approaching some tiny fishing village, instead of one of the largest in the world, wouldn't we be throwing around blame exactly the same way except, we couldn't say, "crowded" or "busiest". Instead, it would be, "tiny fishing boats", "poorly equipped fishing vessels". There would be some reason that should have made it "obvious" why the race committee should not have picked that port or why they should require their racers to reduce speed.
I look at the image of Vestas holed hull and wonder who was moving at what speed in what direction. It wasn't a small boat with 10 crew on board. Yet, they sank and Vesta survived to motor in under her own power.
24 knot winds, but the seas were not so great that Vestas, with that hole, couldn't help in the search and rescue efforts. Visibility was probably pretty good.
Were the fishermen running without lights? Where was the watch on the fishing boat? 10 crew aboard and they didn't see a 70' sailboat approaching from 5 miles out or better? Hong Kong isn't some back water third world village, they are as large and sophisticated as it gets. Why are the accusations, being tossed around, just aimed at the Volvo race? Doesn't the Hong Kong authorities, who allow unlit fishing boats with no radar detection, have some responsibility?
By the way, we don't actually know the fishing boat had no lights or radar. We don't know Vestas had lights or radar either. None of that information has been released. Was the fishing boat with 10 crew on board steel or wood. Why the hole above the waterline on a light weight composite hull, yet the fishing vessel sank. Did they overturn? Vestas had to have knocked them over, because it looks unlikely she holed them below the waterline. Maybe the fishermen were over crowded and overloaded. No information has been released yet.
But, we certainly seem to have no shortage of opinions about who's to blame.
- Will (Dragonfly)
Clearly you do not know much about the fishing villages of that area. This picture should give you a clue...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_O#/media/File:1_tai_o_hong_kong_2013.jpg
You can assume that those commercials are in a designated ship traffic lane and have a local pilot at the helm. Someone who knows the area, the fishing grounds, and where rec boaters dither. Whether or not Vestas was in a designated approach vector or was taking a shortcut to the finish line through a known fishing ground will be a big part of the investigation.
Sorry, a misreading of an article:
"The Volvo Ocean Race began having stops in China for the 2008-9 contest, with sailors finding poorly lit fishing fleets in their path. While no collisions had previously occurred, tearing through fishing gear would prove to be a problem."
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2018/01/20/volvo-ocean-race-blame-game/
View of Hong Kong harbor
- Will (Dragonfly)
"The Volvo Ocean Race began having stops in China for the 2008-9 contest, with sailors finding poorly lit fishing fleets in their path. While no collisions had previously occurred, tearing through fishing gear would prove to be a problem."
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2018/01/20/volvo-ocean-race-blame-game/
View of Hong Kong harbor
- Will (Dragonfly)