A dockmate recently had is heavy centerboard pennant break. when we pulled it up it looked like it was not broken. You could see , however, where the crimp had been before it dissolved. He said he had replace it the year before.
zinc plated copper sleeve on a stainless steel wire rope in salt water -- should I risk it?
- Thread starter Lord Gothington
- Start date
If you can take the job to them, it might be surprisingly cheap. You represent a potential new customer. I've had experience with both attitudes, from business owners; you're a potential customer, so simple discounted one time jobs help build relationships, or you're not already a customer, so it would be unfair to give you a break.
If there is a yacht club or active sailing club near by, you might be able to put out a bulletin and find someone who already owns the tools and is willing to let you borrow them. Maybe someone on SBO already has the crimp and lives nearby. Seems very likely.
-Will (Dragonfly)
Finding a place that can actually do it correctly is proving difficult. The boatyard told me they could do it -- but the swager tool they wanted to use was an older 7 cavity version of this tool which is only rated for aluminum and copper,
Five-Cavity Bench Swager w/ Cutter
SwageRight's Five-Cavity Bench Swager is ideal for large work volumes, used to swage or crimp sleeves. Order now from US Rigging.
usrigging.com
When I researched similar tools from Loos and Nicopress, their multi-cavity swager tools were also only rated for aluminum and copper, and they had a different single cavity tool that is required for use with stainless steel. The yard also claimed that they typically use zinc plated copper for centerboard pennants and that it lasts a long time.
So, I am left with deciding if I should use the stainless steel sleeve with the wrong swager tool, or the zinc platted copper, but with the correct tool.
I found the stop sleeve that was on the old cable (see attached) which had not been replaced in over a decade, and it was plain old copper. Or perhaps it was plated at one time and the plating was lost. It still seems to be in plenty good shape -- though the boat was also in freshwater that entire time. I plan to be in saltwater for 1-2 years before heading back to fresh.
As often seems to be the case with boat repairs, I know what I want, but I must choose between less ideal alternatives. However, those less ideal alternatives might still be good enough.
Attachments
This is really the better solution unless you don't have the room. I. Which case you should go to a stainless steel crimp. But if you have the room, these are a better option. If you can't find the correct crimp tool for the stainless, then third best is use the crimps you have with the correct tool.
dj
I definitely do not have room for wire rope clips. But, pretending I did, what makes them a better solution? The fact that I do not need a special tool to install them?
I'm pondering using the 'wrong tool' for crimping a stainless steel sleeve. I wouldn't do it on something critical, but if this connection fails, it is just an inconvenience.
I am unable to find clear information on why the stainless steel sleeves require a single cavity tool like this one:
Locoloc® 0-3/32SC
Loos & Company, Inc. manufactures wire rope and cable hardware accessories including swaging tools, swaging machines and swaging dies. Call us at (239) 643-5667
instead of the multi-cavity tools like this one:
Rope & Assemblies Division - Website Announcement
Loosco, Loos Cableware, Strand Core, and Sanlo will now operate under loosco.com, unifying the multiple facilities in the Rope & Assemblies division.
loosnaples.com
The former is intended to be very reliable at providing milspec crimps nearly every time -- but does that mean that the bench swager is incapable of doing a job that is 'good enough'?
If I use the bench swager and the sleeve passes according to the 'Locoloc® “Go/No-Go” gauge', is there any meaningful difference? Even if using the bench swager results in a 5% reducing in strength, that is still a plenty huge safety factor in my particular use case.
Alas, that won't help in this case. Even though Tartan calls for the use of an oval sleeve -- it is being used more like a stop sleeve. Nothing actually goes in the loop. I've attached a photo of the old cable a previous owner installed. They opted to use a stop sleeve (and a larger diameter wire rope) -- so it is not quite what Tartan intended, but it worked well enough.
To be honest, I am not quite sure why Tartan uses an oval sleeve instead of a stop sleeve. I wrote, but they have not responded
There is very little clearance on either side of the centerboard, so shackles, wire rope clips, or anything else which sticks out the side won't fit. Even just looping the wire through the crosswise hole will make the centerboard to bulky to fit back in the trunk.
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I am currently in Mobile, AL -- if anyone has a LOCOLOC® 0-3/32SC - HANDSWAGER or Nicopress 3-M-850, I do not even need to borrow the tool, I can bring the cable and sleeve anywhere.
When I finally get back to Chicago, I am seriously considering opening a makerspace for boat owners and hobby boat builders. There are a ton of high priced tools that you really need, but only once or twice. Also, as far as I can tell, there is literally nobody in the state of Illinois that sells marine grade plywood.
The Chicago Harbor system has room for over 6000 boats. And, while it is no longer filled to the brim, it is still pretty full. If just 1% of the boat owners joined the club, that would still be a healthy 50-60 members.
My response was based upon needing to use the loop. Wire rope clips actually provide what is called an "overhead" capable connection. That means that you can use that type of connection in wire rope for applications where people could be working underneath whatever is being suspended. Crimp connections are not rated for "overhead" applications.
Now knowing what these crimps are actually doing - I'd simply use the provided crimps and end the over-engineering strain! LOL
dj
Maybe something like this?
BLIKA 20 Pack Cross Wire Clamps with Hex Key Wrench for 1/8" Wire Rope Cable, Wire Trellis System or Wire Netting, Stainless Steel T316 Marine Grade, Net Clip 90 Degree - - Amazon.com
You could bring the wire stands on the bitter end around to back-twist a lock into it. Looks very secure and only a hex wrench and pliers needed.
-Will (Dragonfly)
BLIKA 20 Pack Cross Wire Clamps with Hex Key Wrench for 1/8" Wire Rope Cable, Wire Trellis System or Wire Netting, Stainless Steel T316 Marine Grade, Net Clip 90 Degree - - Amazon.com
You could bring the wire stands on the bitter end around to back-twist a lock into it. Looks very secure and only a hex wrench and pliers needed.
-Will (Dragonfly)
[QUOTE="Lord Gothington, post: 1614553, member: 150591}When I finally get back to Chicago, I am seriously considering opening a makerspace for boat owners and hobby boat builders. There are a ton of high priced tools that you really need, but only once or twice. Also, as far as I can tell, there is literally nobody in the state of Illinois that sells marine grade plywood.
[/QUOTE]
Some West stores have an on-site rigger in their store.
[/QUOTE]
Some West stores have an on-site rigger in their store.
Already checked with Turner Marine. They only have a multi-cavity tool for aluminum/copper, not the specialized tools which can be used on stainless steel.
For your specific use, I recommend using the parts sent to you. The zinc coated copper should perform well. The zinc will be sacrificial to both the copper and the stainless. If you still feel concerned, dip the end, crimp and cable in some paint or epoxy and go sail.
dj
dj
I use the standard Nicro press fittings on my SS centerboard cable. I believe they are copper. The SS cable - with SS thimble - connects to the 400 lb bronze board via a bronze toggle.
I've changed it once at a 10 year interval. At removal, it looked just like new.
I just checked that re-newed connection, now 9 years in use: 5 months continually in salt water - 7 months out of the water - and it looks new.
Here's a photo of the previous connection just prior to changing it (it had amalgamated tape added 10 years prior which is still mostly there - I skipped the tape on the present connection, which looks like new after 9 seasons) :
I'm back with new information:
I am now 95% certain that Tartan actually sent me a stainless steel oval sleeve and they changed their website to reflect what they actually send. I downloaded the data sheets from nicopress and the dimensions match for the stainless steel. Additionally, I went into West Marine and held my oval sleeve next to zinc things and stainless steel things, and it definitely looks like stainless steel not zinc.
Doing even more digging around on the nicopress website and airplane building websites I've discovered something else interesting. According to nicopress, for galvanized steel wire you should only use plain copper or zinc plated copper sleeves. And for stainless steel wire you should only use tin plated copper or stainless steel sleeves. Using a zinc plated copper sleeve on a stainless steel wire can lead to problems.
After calling everyone around town, I've determined that nobody around here has the proper tool (The Nicopress 51-G-887). Everybody just uses one of the multi-cavity tools on stainless steel. Good thing they are not building airplanes I guess Both the specialized 51-G-887 and multiple cavity tools apply the same required VG groove. So why do they only recommend the single size tool? My best guess is that it delivers slightly more consistent results when pressing SS -- which is much harder than copper. But, if the swaged connection passes the go no-go gauge, then it should be good enough for my needs.
So I am left with 3 choices:
1. spend $200 on a tool that I will use once or twice
2. use a zinc plated copper sleeve and hope the corrosion is not a problem
3. use a stainless steel sleeve and assume the multi-cavity tool they use will be good enough (especially if checked with a gauge).
While option 1 is tempting, I am going to go with option 3. That said, I do not doubt that some people picked option #2 and it worked out just fine for them.
(I did also check if the local West Marines have a rigging specialist, but they said they send all their stuff to a WM in Texas).
I am now 95% certain that Tartan actually sent me a stainless steel oval sleeve and they changed their website to reflect what they actually send. I downloaded the data sheets from nicopress and the dimensions match for the stainless steel. Additionally, I went into West Marine and held my oval sleeve next to zinc things and stainless steel things, and it definitely looks like stainless steel not zinc.
Doing even more digging around on the nicopress website and airplane building websites I've discovered something else interesting. According to nicopress, for galvanized steel wire you should only use plain copper or zinc plated copper sleeves. And for stainless steel wire you should only use tin plated copper or stainless steel sleeves. Using a zinc plated copper sleeve on a stainless steel wire can lead to problems.
After calling everyone around town, I've determined that nobody around here has the proper tool (The Nicopress 51-G-887). Everybody just uses one of the multi-cavity tools on stainless steel. Good thing they are not building airplanes I guess
Both the specialized 51-G-887 and multiple cavity tools apply the same required VG groove. So why do they only recommend the single size tool? My best guess is that it delivers slightly more consistent results when pressing SS -- which is much harder than copper. But, if the swaged connection passes the go no-go gauge, then it should be good enough for my needs.So I am left with 3 choices:
1. spend $200 on a tool that I will use once or twice
2. use a zinc plated copper sleeve and hope the corrosion is not a problem
3. use a stainless steel sleeve and assume the multi-cavity tool they use will be good enough (especially if checked with a gauge).
While option 1 is tempting, I am going to go with option 3. That said, I do not doubt that some people picked option #2 and it worked out just fine for them.
(I did also check if the local West Marines have a rigging specialist, but they said they send all their stuff to a WM in Texas).
I know my understanding of electrolysis is sketchy, at best.
I have taken classes in electricity as part of my computer science degree programs and remember some from junior high and high school. I've grown up being told about the effects of electrolysis in the marine environment, but have no direct experience with it. Your describing it as similar to a battery is exactly how I understand it, even if I don't always follow the implications all the way through.
I think it might be a good thread to start for the purpose of exploring this concept further. How I understand electrolysis and electricity to work is that, the less nobel metal has a looser electrical bond to its electrons and thus, in the presence of a high electrical gradient of pressure, will give up those electrons to the more nobel metal. In order to do this, there needs to be a conduit or conductive pathway, provided by the electrolyte (saltwater). There also needs to be the electrical pressure. This is a natural gradient between the two metals, but it is made much greater, allowing the movement of electrons to overcome the material resistance between the two metals, when there is a low resistance connection to ground. This makes the connection for a completed circuit. I have concluded these ideas from reading about solutions to galvanic action by isolating boats from marina ground and their own electrical systems. It makes sense, however, that a combination of metals that naturally makes a battery, should be capable of creating an independent circuit where the solution they were immersed in allowed the flow of electrons. Another solution I have read about, is to cut off the pathway by coating the metals in teflon or other high resistance insulating materials. Shellac is another one of those insulating coatings.
-Will (Dragonfly)