Yup... I've got the bug to go bigger... again... * balboa 20?*

[RussC]

Yes, speed is everything, which is why I bought the RL24. All of the boats listed rate in the 220+ region. The RL rates 174. If you like passing other boats, its about the only trailer sailor that will do it, especially up wind, other than a Holder 20. But the Holder has a pretty small cabin.

So what's the rating for a Catalina 22?

Looks like I'm going for the long drive to look at the Ensenada tomorrow. I'll be happy coming home with or without it, based on what I see and what we might negotiate if I like what I see
Russ

 

[centerline]

there are a lot of good, small boats to choose from, and personally, I like the value that a macgregor offers. it will do anything the other small boats in its class will, and usually at a cheaper cost.

the only thing that I will fully agree on is that at this stage you should purchase the largest boat that you can easily trailer, which should be a swing keel or water ballasted boat... a 20-22 footer may seem like a lot more room to you, but for about the same cost you can aquire a 25-26ft boat...
here are a couple pics of my first boat, a mac21 along side my second boat a mac25... its only 3 feet longer but it isnt hard to see the difference in the amount of room the longer boat will give you, with no more work in rigging or sailing it... and only about 800lbs heavier. that is before you fill it up with gear and stuff...

 

[Daveinet]

So what's the rating for a Catalina 22?

Looks like I'm going for the long drive to look at the Ensenada tomorrow. I'll be happy coming home with or without it, based on what I see and what we might negotiate if I like what I see
Russ

For the older Catalina 22s:
CATALINA 22 -276
CATALINA 22 NONSPIN ODR - 282
CATALINA 22-2 WK - 282
Catalina 22 MKII -222 (going by memory)
ENSENADA 20 - 288

For comparison, the well loved J-24 rates 168, but because of the fixed keel will be difficult to launch. Some of the S2s rate well, such as the S2 6.7 and 6.9, both 23 footers. Holder 20 rates 186. There are 2 versions, one has a slightly longer cabin, and shorter cockpit.
http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/daroot/Offshore/PHRF/August 2011 Current Base Handicap Class Hi Lo Average.pdf
My opinion has been that for a boat to have a low rating, it must sail well. While the inverse is not necessarily false, it worked for me as a guide. PHRF was the highest level filter in my boating decision.

If you sail by yourself, one of the first things to look at getting is an autopilot. Just start shopping Ebay, and eventually you will stumble on one for $150 bucks or so. I got lucky and purchased one for $68 bucks. Autopilot makes things so much easier, especially if you need to go up front to deal with sails. You may not think that with a small boat that is matters, but what I found was the small boat would change course just from the weight of me standing on the bow, instead of being in the cockpit.

Something else of note, if you end up with a boat with no outboard, Ebay has a 86lbs thrust trolling motor that will work well on anything less than 2000lbs. (55lb thrust is too small) I just converted to the trolling motor this season. Total including batteries ran ~$400 bucks. I love it. nice and quiet, and always "starts". It also makes a huge difference for my wife, as the simplicity of flipping a switch and the light weight, means that she can handle it. She feels much safer, in case I were to go overboard or become incapacitated.

 

[Sumner]

So what's the rating for a Catalina 22? ....Russ

From one source on PHRF (LOWER NUMBERS IN SECONDS ARE BETTER/FASTER)
----------------------------------------------Lowest ---------Highest---------- Average
Class\Type---------------------------- Handicap------- Handicap------- Handicap
CATALINA 22 FK -------------------------249--------------- 279------------- 267
CATALINA 22 ODR---------------------- 270 ---------------276 -------------270
CATALINA 22 SK------------------------- 263 ---------------279 -------------270
CATALINA 22 WK -------------------------267-------------- 285 -------------273
ENSENADA 20 ----------------------------288--------------- 303------------- 294
For Comparison...
MACGREGOR 22 -------------------------237 --------------264 -------------252
MACGREGOR 26S -----------------------210 --------------258 -------------222
MACGREGOR 26D -----------------------210 --------------219 -------------213

RL 24 SK ------------------------------------174 --------------174 --------------174

The RL is by far the fastest and the Ensenada the slowest. The Mac 22 is comparable to the Catalinas if not a bit faster and the 26 foot Macs are quite a bit faster than the 22's as would normally be expected,

I agree with Centerline that the interior size goes way up for just a bit more boat length. I'd never sailed before and the Mac was easy to sail and with a trailer weight of a 20 footer and the shallow draft of 18 inches....

...you can take it about anywhere and easily beach it if so desired. I wanted the swing centerboard vs. the dagger model as it is very forgiving if you hit bottom and that was likely to happen and did happen sailing in un-know water all of the time,

Sumner

=========================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac

Endeavour 37 Mods...

MacGregor 26-S Mods...

Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida, Bahamas

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Yes PHRF is good to know but there are a lot of other things that go into racing and that includes experience, sail control, knowledge of the sailing area and so on. I have raced against many using larger or racing considered boats and beat them. When going against one with the same experience and so on, that is a different story.

 

[jssailem]

Read your selection criteria based on the wisker pole size. Read this on the Forespar site.

Sizing
Whisker poles should be 100% of the foot of whichever headsail is being flown. Measure from the tack to the clew and the whisker pole should be this length. You need to have some overlap in the pole. Poles telescoped to their maximum length are at their weakest, strength-wise. Diameter is a major function of strength. A 2-1/2” diameter tube is as much as 70% stronger than a 2” diameter tube. Size does matter!

Or so the ladies say...

 

[RussC]

Wheew. it was a long day for me yesterday, as I did drive the 4 hours to see the Ensenada20. The seller and I got along famously, as he has a lot of the same hobbies and interests that I do. I ended up spending a couple hours there, and after inspection we did come to an easy agreement on a price that happened to be the number I had in my head to pay for it, but I told him I needed to drive home and let the idea settle before I actually commit to the purchase, which I did. I have to admit that on the drive home I was sorely tempted a few times to just turn around and go buy it however, as I had the cash in my pocket.

Now that I'm back home again, I've had time to really mull over all the things about the boat that I like, as well as the things that I don't. More importantly for me, however, is what boat I might be able to find that would more closely meet our needs, still at a price we can justify. bottom line is that I really haven't seen one that more closely suits us over-all.
Would I like a boat that was a bit faster? sure I would. would I like a boat that was more widely known, for when re-sell time gets here? absolutely. a bit larger cockpit area might be nice also, and maybe a half inch more headroom in the cabin, but what I do like about it is the overall condition of the hull and interior, which is VERY nice, the huge V-birth and efficient use of space in the cabin seating area. plenty of storage compartments, a keel enclosure that isn't too intrusive, the cockpit mounted keel winch, the simple setup of the standing rigging etc, etc, etc. ohh, and I like the 550lb keel that the manufacture claims, in the owners manual, makes the boat self righting in both the up and down position! there is a bit of keel below the hull, but not enough that the boat sits too high on the trailer, and the listed keel up draft is actually only 18". it comes with an older but good running 6hp Johnson, a tank, anchor, alcohol stove, water tanks, porta potty, and a ton of other little extras (even fishing poles ). Ya… I'm pretty sure I'll be making one more fairly long drive in the next day or two .
I really want to thank all who participated in the discussion here also. even though I ended up not purchasing one of your recommendations, it was still an excellent education for this newer sailer on what to look for, and what to look out for. I got a lot of food for thought, and a better perspective of whats available out there. You should be able to spot us now, as we may have the only craft like it on the lake so do stop by and give an "Ahoy". we'll crack a cold one for you.

Cheers,
Russ & Jennifer

 

[Daveinet]

...I really want to thank all who participated in the discussion here also. even though I ended up not purchasing one of your recommendations, it was still an excellent education for this newer sailer on what to look for, and what to look out for. I got a lot of food for thought, and a better perspective of whats available out there. You should be able to spot us now, as we may have the only craft like it on the lake so do stop by and give an "Ahoy". we'll crack a cold one for you.

Cheers,
Russ & Jennifer

Ultimately all the recommendations here are for the purpose of understanding, not necessarily stating as fact that you should buy this boat or that. Hopefully the discussion gave you that. We all have our (very good) reasons for the choices we have made, but those reasons suited us. The whole point is to do the best you can, and have no disappointments once you take the plunge. My first monohull that I bought, from a sailing standpoint was a big disappointment. But I bought it cheap as a learning experience. And did I learn a lot. I was much more anal about what I bought then second time around. Spent tons of time on brand specific affinity forums to learn the good and bad of each boat I was considering. Spent 2+ years in research, which helped build my criteria, and narrow the list. I ended up with exactly what I expected. Hopefully the same will hold true for you as well.

Yes, and you are wise to force yourself to go home and mull it over, so you can distance yourself some from the emotional aspect.

 

[Daveinet]

Yes PHRF is good to know but there are a lot of other things that go into racing and that includes experience, sail control, knowledge of the sailing area and so on. I have raced against many using larger or racing considered boats and beat them. When going against one with the same experience and so on, that is a different story.

No doubt, but the sole purpose of looking at PHRF for this discussion is to get some sort of baseline performance comparison, not specifically be competitive. If one is looking to get a boat for the purpose of being competitive, then the advice would be to find a boat that has already been raced, so the condition is good, and the equipment is up to date.

 

[RussC]

Oh man. not again! it appears that I've missed the boat on the Ensenada also. The owner informed me that 2 hours after I left his house another guy called and wants the boat. he's agreed to deliver it to him in Hillsboro today. well *$#@^! Apparently it just wasn't meant to be for us. the seller did say that if that deal falls through for any reason that he'll deliver it to me, but I find that unlikely... movin on…..
SOoooo, I went and looked at another local boat yesterday. it was a Schock Santana 21. solid hull but needs lots of cosmetic work and all new rigging etc. could be bought very cheep, and includes 7 nice sails and a 10hp Honda kicker etc. BUT. I was very surprised at the lack of seated headroom in that thing. I was really hunched over to even sit in the cabin. is this an issue with the other boats that have been mentioned here so far?? I'm 6'1", but I did fit ok in the Ensenada (barely). how about the Macgregor 21? Centerline, are you still around? ck your pm

Russ

 

[jssailem]

Looking at the Macgregor 21 on line you may find it a bit tight for your 6'1" frame. The online video of two 5'10" guys sailing to Catalina in a 1966 refurbished boat was not pretty when looking at the interior space.

I did see a couple with a Macgregor 26 retrieving it in 2014 after a week on Detroit Lake, OR. They gave me a tour and it was a lot of boat for a trailer craft. With the sails down and the big outboard that could cruise past many motor boats on the planing hull.

They found it very easy to launch and retrieve. Had a 3/4 ton pickup to haul the boat. Said it trailed easily mainly due to the water ballast system. Light weight on the trailer, water weighted while afloat to keep the pretty side up.

There is a right boat for the right person.

 

[Daveinet]

I don't think you are going to find the interior headroom without moving up to a 23 or 24 foot boat. That is were 4 and 1/2 foot of headroom is more common. If you looked at Santana, try looking for a 2023 or a 23D. The 2023 was designed for ease of setting up with a roller boom furling for the main. Do a Youtube search, as there was a promo video on the 2023C showing the setup. Otherwise look for a S2 6.9, which has a 4'6" interior headroom, which is the same as mine.

On Edit : I watched the video again, and I think it is worthwhile watch, as it will give you some perspective on the ease of launching a slightly larger boat.

 

[RussC]

That's a great old video Dave. I'd never seen that one before. I wish there was still innovation like that going on in boat building for the masses today. I did have to laugh at the one Bronco II tow vehicle however, as I owned one years ago. it was one of the most dependable vehicles I've ever owned, and would climb a tree, but it had the towing ability of a Honda Accord. I towed a very small camp trailer with it once and just about gave the squirrels heart failure climbing even the smallest hills.
I did a CL search for the Santana 2023 and the RL24. both are pretty rare beasts, on the left coast anyway.
I never expected to find stand up headroom in a 20 foot boat, but I did assume you'd be able to sit down in the cabin without hunching over . The seats in the Santana 21 cabin were very high or it would have been much more usable. I could live with sitting on a lower seat if my head could just remain upright
huum. I've done plenty of fiberglass work on early Vettes over the years…. maybe I could "chop" the cabin benches a few inches in a boat I otherwise liked. .

Still searching,
Russ

 

[Daveinet]

My first monohull had very low seats. it wasn't too bad, but the limitation was the portapotty which will only sit so low. I know you got the itch, so its difficult to except not finding something. just be patient. Don't just buy because it is the right length and in your area. Wait for what you really want. Here is the search engines that I use:
http://www.dailylister.com/Search_R...e&cof=FORID:11&ie=UTF-8&sort=date&newwindow=1
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/search/
http://www.sailingtexas.com/cboats....llery to get pricing of boats previously sold.

 

[RussC]

Yup. I follow the two last ones, but use Searchtempest for CL ads. What did we ever do before computers?

Thanks,
Russ

 

[Daveinet]

So how far away is Reno from where you live?
http://reno.craigslist.org/boa/5228731587.html
Very spacious interior for a 22 foot boat. Its a dagger board, so should be easy enough to launch. DO a little reading on the S2 6.9. There are a fairly quick boat. I've not found any videos of the 6.9 on Youtube, but there are a few videos of a 6.7 which the the same hull. That should give you some sense for the sailing characteristics. Basically they redesigned the cabin and labeled it the 6.9. Its a tiny bit heavier, and the rig was slightly moved to accommodate the relocation of the dagger board. The mast should be easily raised with a small gin pole setup. One thing about the 6.9 is that there is a walkway around the cabin, so if you need to go up front, your not trying to balance and climb over the cabin roof. Makes it much easier to get around. Interior headroom is 4'6", so should be tall enough inside.
http://s2-69-jollymon.blogspot.com/p/s2-69-specifications.html

On Edit: I lied. Haven't searched on S2 6.9 for a while since I had already found my boat.

Something to notice is the boat speed compared to how flat the boat sails. Sure it does heal on occasion, but you can see in moderate winds, the boat has good speed without healing.

 

[Bad Obsession]

Look at Compac Yachts. The Eclispe may be a good choice and they have other boats that have very easy masts to step.

I have a Compac 23. When I stepped down from my Catalina 30 I wanted some particular things in a boat. First, I wanted a fixed keel so that I didn't have to deal with worrying about centerboard issues. I also wanted a boat that was well built and strong that could take what the Chesapeake Bay dished out. It had to be trailerable (saves money on the haul outs).

Compac 23 is a tough boat. It is well built and the company is still in business. The customer service is awesome. The cabin layout is great. It has more of a classic design and the interior is filled with teak.

I can step the mast myself. It does take some rigging but it isn't that bad. I tend to leave her in the slip 6 months out of the year. She is set up for full cruising with all kinds of nice things.

Beauty of it all is that you can find some pretty good deals on a Compac 23 since they have been making them for years.

 

[Bad Obsession]

Take a look at Compacs that are used and for sale.
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi...rer=Com-Pac&view_records=1&sb=date&so=descend

Also, Here is my boat sailing:

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Bad Obsession;

I need to go sailing with you next year on your boat. It has been too long. Beautiful phootoes

 

[Bad Obsession]

Thanks Dave....you have an open invite when she is in the water.