Youth Sailing

Jackdaw · May 23, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
Obviously, it depends on the age as to how much a kid can, or will, absorb in a "lesson." Letting one go in say, a sabot, w/ little to no instruction of the basics means that they'll have to be rescued if not taught how to right the boat or even how to keep it from blowing over. Boats and kids will end up down wind and may or may not figure out how to get back up wind whence they started. (We have adults who still can't figure that out too well; I've seen some pretty pathetic stuff in that regard.) Analogy--a 30-min lesson on the piano or any musical instrument that starts explaining the basics is more productive than letting the kid bang the keys until figuring out how to play a four to five note piece from "memory."

I get your point, but that's a terrible analogy. Music theory and the mechanics of piano are hugely complex. I can teach a kid to putter around and follow his friends in a Opti in 10 minutes. Shes now sailing. Then they learn 10x more the rest of the morning just watching other kids sailing and the instructors on the water with them. No way that happens with a piano.

Kings Gambit · May 23, 2016

Roland5048 said:
Remember, if it's not fun, they won't be back.

Yeah-- well that represents the heartbreak of every teacher; when it's more important to you, than to the students or to their parents, for them to learn something worthwhile. Most of us, me included, would spend hours & hours teaching what we know to a kid who wants to learn it. I'd likely spend less ten minutes on one that wishes only to be "entertained." It does not take long to tell the difference.

Kings Gambit · May 23, 2016

Jackdaw said:
I get your point, but that's a terrible analogy. Music theory and the mechanics of piano are hugely complex. I can teach a kid to putter around and follow his friends in a Opti in 10 minutes. Shes now sailing. Then they learn 10x much just watching other kids sailing and the instructors on the water with them. No way that happens with a piano.

Maybe-- I don't know; but then maybe not all that bad. My wife tells me a kid 5 years old can learn "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in a few minutes-- might even get a duet going. Of course, it's a long way from there to Für Elise w/o formal instruction.

Jackdaw · May 23, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
Maybe-- I don't know; but then maybe not all that bad. My wife tells me a kid 5 years old can learn "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in a few minutes-- might even get a duet going. Of course, it's a long way from there to Für Elise w/o formal instruction.

No, they don't LEARN 'Mary had a little lamb'. They MEMORIZE it. That's not learning. Big difference.

Every world-class sailor I know start like this, in Opti-camp. Its clearly not the only way to get kids into sailing. But its probably the best.

Kings Gambit · May 23, 2016

Jackdaw said:
No, they don't LEARN 'Mary had a little lamb'. They MEMORIZE it. That's not learning. Big difference.

Every world-class sailor I know start like this, in Opti-camp. Its clearly not the only way to get kids into sailing. But its probably the best.

This is absurd-- now memory or memorizing isn't learning? Memory is the total foundation of learning. Geeze Louise!

Jackdaw · May 23, 2016

What's absurd is your (typical) instance to defend a bad position, in this case the music analogy. ;^)

The 10 minutes I spend showing a kids how to position the sail and tiller to the breeze is enough to get them moving anywhere they want to go on the water. They go out along with friends in other boats and by noon they are champs. Its the nature of sailing, you can build skills alone, and the best sailing instruction takes advantage of that.

Your Mary had a little lamb analogy has no comparable position. Them memorizing that small piece teaches nothing about learning music theory or piano mechanics that can transfer into self taught skills. Its exactly why piano is taught totally differently than sailing.

Kings Gambit · May 23, 2016

Jackdaw said:
What's absurd is your (typical) instance to defend a bad position, in this case the music analogy. ;^)

The 10 minutes I spend showing a kids how to position the sail and tiller to the breeze is enough to get them moving anywhere they want to go on the water. They go out along with friends in other boats and by noon they are champs. Its the nature of sailing, you can build skills alone, and the best sailing instruction takes advantage of that.

Your Mary had a little lamb analogy has no comparable position. Them memorizing that small piece teaches nothing about learning music theory or piano mechanics that can transfer into self taught skills. Its exactly why piano is taught totally differently than sailing.

Sorry, I think you miss the point (big picture) and continue on with your (typical) pendantism. It's the difference between a teaching approach that "gets them doing it" w/minimal(?) classroom instruction on the principles, versus an approach that spends as much or more time teaching what they need to know in those classroom subject areas, etc. Eventually, people who cannot read music can still play a musical instrument well; maybe better than some who can. I'm sure people can learn to sail a boat well who cannot explain a resultant wind vector to someone else. I guess that's why we have competitions-- to find out which teaching philosophies get the best results.

Barnacle Phil · May 23, 2016

I think the Opti, Sunfish, Lasers and even Zuma boats are great for starters, but kids of all ages love the "King of the World" position on a larger boat. Almost any experience sailing can grow into a lifelong love for the sport.

JohnVTX · May 23, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
(typical) pendantism

Really. You are going to accuse @Jackdaw of book learning? I know of nobody on this site that spends more time in the boat SHOWING others how to do it....You are nuts.

Kings Gambit · May 24, 2016

Don, the US Sailing course syllabus for beginning dingy sailors spends much of the first class session on instruction about life jackets and capsize recovery, followed by capsize recovery practice, and then knots. Late in the second session the students get to do their first sail after learning about weather, rigging of the boat, and "safe sailing." Looks like about 5 hours of instruction there b/f actually putting them in a boat for sailing. Of course, there is a swim test in the first session as well. These certified courses such as offered by US Sailing and ASA follow the general format of instruction (high school, sometimes; and college) for teaching of subjects that require hands-on application. That is, some lecture material is presented followed by a "laboratory" where the hands-on components are taught.

It's true that many kids may not listen closely to what is being presented in lecture. So, the goal in these types of courses is to now make them interactive during "lecture." For example, spread out a jib or mainsail on the floor and, after some diagramming beforehand, ask one kid to stand at the clew, one kid at the tack, and one kid at the head. Then let them return to their seats. Next, totally mess up the sail-- turn it over, twist it up some, and pile it up. Then give three new kids each a card with either clew, tack, or head written on it. Ask them to unscramble the sail and stand where their card tells them to, etc. Later, you can ask each kid to use bowlines to attach sheets to the clew of the jib, etc. You can do this kind of thing throughout all of the lecture material to help keep interest, etc.

Kings Gambit · May 24, 2016

Don Guillette said:
My point with this topic was that maybe just ONE sailor would read this topic, like the idea and present it to his YC or whatever and get a sailing program going for kids. I was hoping that this topic would have provided that ONE sailor all the info he'd need to present and sell a program outline to the powers that be. Unfortunately, this discussion reminds me of the arguments that developed with the newbie racing adventure.

It's comes down, I believe, to what I mentioned earlier about the goals of a youth, or any other instructional, sailing program. If the goal is to train people to race in a yacht club's racing program, then that would call for one approach. If for its own sake, then that would call for a different approach. Ginning up a new youth program in a yacht club takes a commitment from the membership to support it. The Commodore, the Fleet Captain, and the Board of Directors would have to get behind it. Among clubs where half or more of the members are power boaters who themselves have not sailed or grown up in a youth sailing program, that might be a difficult "sell." And, of course, one needs the facilities such as dry space or slips to keep the boats. Many clubs of recent vintage do not have what the more established ones have--e.g., their own docks and/or property. Those that were established in the early days of waterfront development have much more of an advantage. Newer clubs are often in rented facilities with no property around them--slips are owned by commercial marinas or by the city, etc. So, the effort to gin up a new program might face some serious obstacles--even some of the same ones you might have faced in your attempt.

Roland5048 · May 24, 2016

Don, I have to put things in perspective here. First, I'm not a regular small boat sailor although I can certainly sail one. The boats I teach on are 30+ foot class keel boats. Most of my students are adults with a much longer attention span...but not always. When I talk about a quick "how to", it's after I have them, the kid, at the helm and then help them get a feel for the boat's motion and attitude and how to keep wind in the sails. They are not really "cut loose" as I said as we are all on the boat and I am right there. Not a lot of theory here, just driving the boat and having fun. Depending on their level of interest we can take it a bit further. This is not happening during a real lesson, however, but during the day on a regular charter with adults and their kids. I would actually approach teaching kids differently than adults. Remember, in the above scenario, this would be a private charter with the adults sitting on the bow having a great time while their kid is bored to death.

Second, my background is in education, having spent close to 35 years in the classroom mostly at the middle school level so I may have a slightly different frame of reference in approaching teaching. My previous posts were not meant to be aimed at the specifics of sailing instruction as much they were towards educational practices in theory.

Now, let's see if we can get KG and JD to shake hands and return to their seats before I have to send them to the principal.

Kings Gambit · May 24, 2016

Thanks, Roland
I have taught kids sailing; not in dinghies but in 20-ft keel boats. Normally, it's 3 to 4 kids, 11-17 yr old, and the instructor, in the boat; sometimes there is another adult. About the first thing taught on the water is how to sail a wind course under mainsail only; i.e., keep a constant bearing to the wind (apparent-but let's not start a debate about true versus apparent--one has to use something and that's what I choose) using the Windex or the compass. Neither works that well for the kids--i.e., they are usually all over the "course." After that, I have 'em sail figure 8's around two marks, axis normal to the true wind, with each getting a hand on the tiller. At first it's tack-tack. Later, it's gybe-gybe (controlled gybe). We also do some trimming of the mainsail, naturally. We then have to sail the boat back into the slip and de-rig it. If there's time--then back to the classroom to go over what we did, etc. Next time out we do the same thing but hoist the jib as well. Now the kids really get to experience "team work" on tacking and gybing, etc. This type of program is more labor intensive than a dinghy one b/c you need an instructor in every boat, plus at times a chase boat. It's very different than the dinghy parade with one mother-ducky in a whaler trailing 10-12 sabots in the harbor.

Kings Gambit · May 24, 2016

Continuation of post #34.

On the third time out I have 'em sail a triangular course where we have to fetch an upwind mark, tack around it, then reach to the second mark, gybe around that, then reach to the leeward mark where we have only to harden-up around it. Go a few boat lengths then let the next kid take over, and repeat. So, three or four times around the course. After that, or perhaps before (can't recall the exact order), each must heave to on my command and/or recover a "man overboard" ring. We do a few other things but on the last day out they must race the other boats/students. We have a real start using the chase boat, and we all race (usually 3 or 4 boats out at a time) the triangular course layout or similar that we used the previous session. It's a short course, so we can get three or four races in; each kid takes a turn at the tiller. On the last very last day out we review some stuff, and when it's time to go in, if I think they're mature enough, I have the skiff take me and other adult off of the boat I'm using, then let them sail to the marina which will require tacking, etc. [So, this what they must do before I "cut them loose."] It's a great swell of pride for me to see 'em do it. However, I do get back on for the final sail into the slip.

Jackdaw · May 24, 2016

Roland5048 said:
Now, let's see if we can get KG and JD to shake hands and return to their seats before I have to send them to the principal.

;^) Thanks for the thinking about me, but you've over-thought what I think about threads like this, or how much I think about other participants in the context of these discussions, Frankly I could care less if KG 'likes' me. What I DO care about is facts or generally accepted truths about sailing and sailing related theory. I think I've developed a reputation here of being a fairly accurate keeper/deliverer of sailing 'truth'. My feedback ranking points to that. It's my way of giving back to a sport I love. My comments/opinions are mine, and not the result of some google search in order to provide some hasty commentary about something I know little about.. If someone writes something that I think is incorrect or pure BS, you'll probably hear from me. My guess is people in general like that. Most.

Roland5048 · May 25, 2016

OK, my last comment was, of course, made "tongue in cheek". I do, however, enjoy a fun back and forth banter. Jackdaw, you're comments/opinions, I believe, are well regarded and respected on this forum as are the comments/opinions of many others. If I do make a statement that is blatantly false, I would hope that someone would call me out on it. I'm always willing and trying to learn something new. To me, that's what this site is all about. Now, let's go sailing!

Indysailor · Jun 4, 2016

We have a sailing camp that runs through summer months, divided into beginner, intermediate and advanced. It's quite popular, usually filled to capacity (about 20 kids per week). They follow US Sailing curriculum and from my own observations, having sent my son through the program, it seems many kids do progress through at least to the intermediate level. Some at our club believe it is a critical part of creating new members, either kids who eventually convince parents to buy them a sunfish or something similar, or parents who might become interested in sailing due to their kids' involvement. Others don't see it that way at all, saying there is little evidence that sailing camps or youth programs facilitate new membership. I'm wondering what others are seeing at their clubs; are youth sailing programs creating new members?

BudGates · Jun 4, 2016

Indysailor said:
We have a sailing camp that runs through summer months, divided into beginner, intermediate and advanced. It's quite popular, usually filled to capacity (about 20 kids per week). They follow US Sailing curriculum and from my own observations, having sent my son through the program, it seems many kids do progress through at least to the intermediate level. Some at our club believe it is a critical part of creating new members, either kids who eventually convince parents to buy them a sunfish or something similar, or parents who might become interested in sailing due to their kids' involvement. Others don't see it that way at all, saying there is little evidence that sailing camps or youth programs facilitate new membership. I'm wondering what others are seeing at their clubs; are youth sailing programs creating new members?

If your only purpose of having the sailing camps is to bring in new members you're doing it for the wrong reason.