You Can't Live on a Boat Anymore
- Thread starter Roger Long
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So yes, that's about it in a nutshell. You can stay full legit, or go completely underground, there's really little in between. And as romantic as the tv tends to semi-glamorize this lifestyle, it's tough business. Every single day of your life, every minute, every single little move you make; you ensure your anonymity. Take a look at the camera's around you.. Walk into any mainstream store that you know and buy a drink. You've been filmed when you drove up. And leave. Your picture, tag number, whatever. I'm not being paranoid, look around. A genuine "effort" to buy a cold drink.
Lord, Phil's gonna kick me to some obscure section of the site. But I say these things because I know first hand. I promise you that I'm a realist. We did land on the moon, bigfoot doesn't exist any more than aliens, Lee Oswald most certainly shot J.F.K. single handed, and your government knows what you do every single minute if they want to. As was alluded to earlier, at 305,755,xxx people accounted for in the states, there's only so many folks to process this information. And while it's fair to say that nobody gives one crap what Jo-Jo's doing in the trailer park, others demand a tad more attention. Remember all the "fuss" that was somewhat centered around Orwell's Socialist state predictions? A little late for sure, but real nonetheless. Worried about the government putting tracking devices surgically inside you to keep tabs? No need to concern yourself with it, you already bought it yourself, and carry it in your pocket, WITH G.P.S., camera, and the simple ability to turn these devices on and listen, and you thought that the phone was turned off. And it is. Oh, you didn't take the battery out? Too bad. It really doesn't matter whether it's turned on or off.
And you don't have to pick up your land-line phone. It can simply be turned on, and hear every word spoken in your house. And yes, it IS still hung up on the wall. Sorry, my dumbass was doing this over 15 years ago, so you get to guess the technology level now. It's not hard. But it is terrifying. For some people.
That nonsensical crap played on some shows about the conspiracies "we're" involved in is age-old disinformation, to keep the stupid occupied..
So again, you're a billboard, or a tree root.
There is something kind of in between, but that is very, very, protracted, and requires twice the energy as the other two options. And that is truly the most dangerous game..
And then, there's me. Between this forum, my SPOT, the Titanic shows, and Facebook, my life has sort of become the "Truman Show". It's kind of strange for an essentially private person who used to love sitting in an anchorage knowing that there wasn't a single person in the world who knew where I was. However, I've decided it's worth it for the free beer.
Oh yes, the proper motivation. Yes, beer. I do understand, and in retrospect, it's probably worth it.
The answer to all my troubles.
And some of the problems as well..
The answer to all my troubles.
And some of the problems as well..
NotCook
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- Dec 29, 2008
- 805
We have been considering changing our state of residence to the Virgin Islands when we retire. I suppose we would have the same physical address problems there. Sounds like yet another thing we will have to look into, as I had not considered the DL issue, or the Documentation.
I wonder, will they deliver mail to a mooring ball...
I wonder, will they deliver mail to a mooring ball...
Uncle Sam's lair!
I agree with a lot of your statements (except the alien one
).Is it possible to disappear?
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Raas, this isn't a blog, it's a thread or topic. There's a big difference. Usually a blog is written by one person and becomes a record of what they've done in some endeavor, in our case boating.
This is a message board or forum, in which folks ask questions for others to provide answers, or in some cases post their solutions to issues that others may be interested.
The OP wants to live on his boat and has noted certain inconsistencies and changes in the laws over the years that preclude him from doing this as simply as used to be able to be practiced. Many of us have learned a lot from the difficulties he and others have described.
If you think it's so easy, perhaps you can tell us how to do it legally, you know, in more detail than your "want to or don't", 'cuz it seems to me from the laws being noted that you just can't hop on and leave. Unless you want to give up your driver license, which the OP for stated reasons which are quite valid, doesn't want to do.
If you have something worthwhile to contribute, please do so. if you don't, you are the one who should stop whining.
I'm not a lawyer but I played a naval architect who was married to one on TV.
Lawyer's don't always have the answer you need.
Here's what I learned from my call to the DMV: If I had showed up to change the address on my license and car registration, they would have asked for my proof of residency and said that the UPS Store doesn't cut it. They keep a list of those because of the smart alec's who try to avoid some of the highest automobile insurance rates in the nation down in Boston.
Next question: "Where are you living now?'
"On my boat."
"Can you show me a marina slip rental?'
"No, I'm just cruising around."
"Well, you can just hand that license over because it is now revoked and suspended. You'll need to take a cab back to your boat and have your car towed to a garage because its registrations is now suspended."
Now, let's say that the law doesn't actually support what the administrators are doing as is the case all too often. A lawyer could help me prove that, for about the cost of my boat and a process that would probably conclude about the time I'm too old to sail it.
Fortunately, my current address will still be legal for a bit longer.
There is a point, where even free beer doesn't compensate for the loss of privacy. Wish I had an answer. A good start would be to de-fund Homeland Security and the Patriot Act. What are you willing to trade for some marginal, if any, increase in personal security?
Having three times been vetted for security clearance, and served a political appointment in government, I have no illusions about who knows what about me. Nor do I expect anything I post on an internet forum to be private. Yet, no one should be able to read my email traffic, or know with whom I correspond. Further, no one should be able to track my travels in my car or in my boat except as I provide. George Orwell was prescient ………..
Snot. I have thought about this at length. Things of this nature really being not very far from my mind anyway, I contend the aforementioned "roomie arrangement" may be the way to go. People reside together commonly, many names, one address. So maybe a trusted friend, (that was actually hard to type), could "rent" you one cubic foot of space say, just large enough to fit a landline phone and answering machine, with a message that states you rarely listen to the messages, please send relevant correspondence to this address, where occasionally your fellow felon, (I mean trusted friend), forwards the mail. Once you have a piece of mail or two from a power company, phone company, something very relevant with your name on it, and that address, there you are. Mostly above the board I would surmise. But I'm better at disappearing than what you propose. Somewhat, evidently..
I have a pretty good friend, that is in a capacity of government with the ability to decide a mans fate. He's been doing it for a long time, and is highly respected. In one of our b.s. sessions, (he's generally quite candid), but he makes many decisions on the spirit of the law, as opposed to the letter of the law. Not breaking it mind you, the gentleman is very forthright and beyond reproach. But he has a lot of sense, which of course is rare in most people of this capacity.
So I guess my thinking is, is largely on who you have to deal with. Maybe personally. It's probably more a roll of the dice, instead of flipping a coin..
I have a pretty good friend, that is in a capacity of government with the ability to decide a mans fate. He's been doing it for a long time, and is highly respected. In one of our b.s. sessions, (he's generally quite candid), but he makes many decisions on the spirit of the law, as opposed to the letter of the law. Not breaking it mind you, the gentleman is very forthright and beyond reproach. But he has a lot of sense, which of course is rare in most people of this capacity.
So I guess my thinking is, is largely on who you have to deal with. Maybe personally. It's probably more a roll of the dice, instead of flipping a coin..
Actually, that doesn't work for getting or renewing a driver's license in Maine anymore and I believe that is now universal in all states due to the Federal Real ID law. According to what I was told at the DMV, and what I went through the last time I renewed my license, your name has to be on the lease, rental agreement, or one of the utilities.
I was just told specifically, "Staying with a friend doesn't count unless you have a legally binding piece of paper to back it up."
There is always a lot of inconsistency in how these things are administered. You'll always have clerks, especially in small towns, doing things the way they did them for the last 20 years. I was actually able to use a bank statement the last time I renewed my license since it showed my current address. According to what I was just told, that wouldn't be acceptable. I don't know if there has been a subsequent clarification or if it's just one of those things where the discretion of clerks varies.
I haven't checked with the bank yet whether I can use the UPS Store address for the bank or have to use the new apartment in accordance with the government desire to track all our financial transactions so they can claim to be looking for terrorists. The credit card company was happy with the UPS Store.
You talk about hiding. For me it's exactly the opposite. I'm trying to stay legitimately in plain sight, maintain my ties to Maine, at the price of giving the state thousands in taxes. If I was going to play games, I would do it in NH where there is no income tax. Strange that I have to go through such hoops as to rent an apartment I'll hardly ever see the inside of.
When I bought my present boat, it was from the widow of a gentleman who had passed away. DMV wanted an affidavit of some sort, then a death certificate, then there were some other problems, with me switching to another office at some point, then at the behest of a broker I know, I went to a third, very small and old DMV office where they told me both names were on the title and registrations, so either one can sell it and they didn't need any of that other paperwork (that I made the widow produce, which I felt terrible asking for).
Two minutes and it was all transferred/registered and legal. So a handful of folks, including supervisors, didn't know what they were doing, and one very nice clerk in a tiny office in the boonies knew exactly what she was doing (if the docs had the word "and" with the two names, then the extra paperwork would have been required, but the absence of the word means "or" as far as DMV in NYS is concerned).
I'm not sure what the moral of the story is here, other than a number of gov't. folks who should know what they're doing didn't, and one person in a small, old office knew exactly what she was doing, which makes me suspicious of anything anyone tells me when they're 'from the government, and we're here to help.'
Oh, yeah - to your problem. The cheapest solution I can think of is to rent a room, with paper to back it up, in a friend's house. Like a basement apartment you'll never visit. Have your mail sent to a mailbox company, but have a physical address that's someone's guest room, if you can do that legally, and give them a few bucks compensation. I don't see anything about it that's not legal, but you'd need a friend who wouldn't mind hosting you.
This IS boating related:and one person in a small, old office knew exactly what she was doing, which makes me suspicious of anything anyone tells me when they're 'from the government, and we're here to help.'
1. That person DID work for the govt.
2. I'm sure the boaters and others who experienced Hurricane Sandy and the govt's relief efforst don't feel that way.
I think the moral of the story is that there are two kinds of law, perhaps we could all them "Micro Law" and "Mega Law".
Mircro Law is what the officer you are dealing with believes. A lot of the anchoring problems in Florida where local cops not understanding the law. I'm not convinced that what wrote in the thread about who is the operator is actually true but it's clear that enough government officials and law enforcement officers in Canada and other places believe it that you have to act as if it is.
Macro Law is what the law actually says and means but proving it is usually beyond the means of the average person. It took decades to for Maco Law to finally be established about anchoring in Florida. No single cruiser could have afforded the time and money take it all the way to the Supreme Court. According to reports, you'll still fine police out in homeland security funded boats in Florida telling people they can't anchor. It's rare now but, if it happens to you, that effectively is the law unless you are willing to stay for a few months or years and spend thousands of dollars proving them wrong.
This is made worse by the tendency of law enforcement and other agencies to automatically back up bone headed decisions by the people on the line and make proving them wrong generally impractical.
You were lucky to find someone who actually knew the regulations she was enforcing. They are rarer and rarer.
On the specific issue of this thread however, I don't think there is much difference between Micro and Macro. For the same reasons the government wants records of all our phone calls and emails and scans and records the outside of everything that goes through the USPS, they want every person identified with a physical location.
Does the rental agreement have to be for a whole apartment? Can't you draw up a rental agreement with a friend that meets the definition of a legally binding piece of paper?
Hey Roger, I'll lease you my basement down here in Virginia....
You will be right at home with the rest of us over 55+ crowd..
You will be right at home with the rest of us over 55+ crowd..
OK just got back from DDS ( department of drivers services) was renewing my drivers license for another 5 years....while i was talking to the person handling my transaction i ask what about people living on boats ...his reply was students that live with there parents have a problem as well so what they are doing to solve the problem is have the parents draw up a lease/rental agreement for $1.00 a year at there parents address and they are good to go .....so it seems to me they are just covering there butts about where you live...he also said that a boater needed to just bring a lease agreement from the marina or land based address and that would satisfy the requirement......so as far as i am concerned it is not going to be a big deal to keep things on the up and up ........
regards
woody
regards
woody
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