Yanmar Starter Button

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Jun 3, 2004
418
Island Packet Island Packet 29 West River, MD
I have a 1983 Yanmar 3GMF with the larger cockpit control panel. Two or three times this summer when I went to push the starter button nothing happened. On the second try she would fire right up. I want to trouble shoot this and am looking for advice on what to do. I'm not a diesel expert though I have done all the work and maintainance on her for the last nine years learning as I go.

Thanks in advance.

Joe Mullee
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,047
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
You don't have to be a diesel expert, but ya really oughta start learning! All you really have to be is an electrician!

Lack of start? Three components involved: start button, wiring and connections, and fuses (newer boats have circuit breakers).

So, whenever boats don't start the owners immediately think it's the start button. And 99% of the time they're dead wrong.

Check for a fuse between the start button and the starter solenoid. The fuse is usually in an old timey (i.e., cheap) plastic fuse holder. The holders tend to disintegrate over time, so even if the fuse is good, it may no longer be making contact.

Give it a shot before ya call a mechanic (quality boat mechanic = oxymoron).

And if anyone has an argument with that concept, then, by all means, start writing down who are GOOD boat mechanics you've found, please, we could make a fortune writing good references and keeping them here on this board.

Good boat electrician: Ryan's Marine, Oakland, California.
 
Dec 1, 1999
2,391
Hunter 28.5 Chesapeake Bay
Joe:
Stu is right, it is not the start button (I now have an extra one....). This sounds like the very common intermittant starting problem that happens with aging Yanmars. I added a 12vdc relay to the solenoid to help boost the amps delivered to the starter when you hit the button. Problem is increased impedence in the wiring harness. See Boat Info>KnowledgeBase>Engines>Yanmar above and click on a number of articles on this topic.

Just sent you an email/PDF on this fix.
 

Attachments

Aug 19, 2004
239
Hunter 35 Vancouver, BC
Solution?

Warren Milberg said "I added a 12vdc relay to the solenoid to help boost the amps delivered to the starter when you hit the button. Problem is increased impedence in the wiring harness".

I agree 100% and installed the relay some time back. This immediately fixed this common Hunter/Yanmar problem..... but a year or so later I am seeing more of the same! So I have concluded that the wiring harness is now really suffering. I have thought about adding a momentary switch close to the new relay in case all else fails!

The internet consensus seems to be that the high impedance is due to the original use of un-tinned wire and the large number of connections in the harness. As a possible simple fix, I wonder if anyone has tried leaving the old harness in place and running two new wires, one to one side of the started button and one to the other side of the key?
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,047
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
...internet consensus seems to be that the high impedance is due to the original use of un-tinned wire and the large number of connections...leaving the old harness in place and running two new wires, one to one side of the started button and one to the other side of the key?
Don't know if anyone else has done it, but that's irrelevant. Your solution is elegant: essentially replace the faulty component! Of course!;)
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
I did this exact thing

It solved the problem as of 5 years ago.
I conclude from this that it is not so much a bad design or materials but the way they put the boat together with separate wiring harness for each piece does tend to produce a large number of connections. All those connections have a small (0.2 volt) voltage drop across them and the more the amps the more voltage drop. With the total number of connections from + to - battery post being around 12 that is 2.4 volts lost just in the connections. add another volt due to a few bad connections and you get to 9 volts across the solenoid pretty fast.
You can make a tester with a long piece of wire and a few solder-less connections. Just make a shunt that connects the starter wire at the solenoid to the solenoid so you can connect the wire but have the long wire lead up to the cockpit. Think of it as a super long test lead on your multimeter. If you measure the voltage across the wire and ground (don't ground the wire or you will get a short) you can see the pretty dramatic voltages available when the starter is engaged and when it is just sitting there.
Then when the starter will not work touch the long wire to a 12 volt source and watch her crank right up.
 

BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
I had this problem last summer. Washed the boat down the night before and it wouldn't start the next morning. A new button is about $20 and takes five minutes to install, if yours is cracked and worn. However, after replacing mine it still wouldn't start. I removed the terminals at the starter button, cleaned them, tightened them and it has started right up ever since. Start simple.
 
Jul 18, 2009
274
marine clipper 21 ft santa ana Southern Lakes,Yukon
its not your problem likely...but as well keep some wd40 handy to drive out moisture in suspect areas..i would as suggested in some posts to rewire/clean/retighten etc the starter ciircuit,it is not difficult and it would put you in charge of knowing whats what once you completed it for trouble shooting in the future
 
Jun 13, 2005
559
Irwin Barefoot 37 CC Sloop Port Orchard WA
There is one other component that hasn't been mentioned and that is the key switch. I had a problem with mine as you describe but it was caused by the switches lose securing mechanism. The switch would click at the on position but go just a pinch beyond, shutting of all electric. When I backed it a hair the button would work. When the switch is truly on the alarm lights should be on, so just look before you press.

Have fun

Joe S
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Joe: Check out the connections on both ends (starter button & the starter/ground). This is a common problem on older boats. Be sure to use a wire brush to clean everything thourly.

It can be the button and they are not overly expensive.
 

NYSail

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Jan 6, 2006
3,145
Beneteau 423 Mt. Sinai, NY
I have solved my problem with starting problems last week.

I was getting the typical "nothing happens" when you press the button for the past 2.5 years. I replaced button, key switch and checked the connections. But nothing helped... I finally made a specialty tool to bypass the switch at the starter for this problem so I did not have to run and get a screw driver each time.

Until last week. I bought some electrical connection gel (forgot the actual name). This stuff was from WM and is used for light bulb connections as it is a conductor. I took every connection apart on the harness (there are three connections on mine) and added this stuff into the female side. Have to clean real good after application as the current will travel where ever this stuff is and could cross wires. Ever since the engine starts on the first try. Did not even have to switch to the starter battery after 2 days draining house bank while on the hook.

Give it a try!
Good luck
 
Oct 14, 2005
2,191
1983 Hunter H34 North East, MD
Joe...

installing the starter circuit relay as Warren suggested solved the problem for me and at least three other boats at my docks.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,047
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I was getting the typical "nothing happens" when you press the button for the past 2.5 years.
Congratulations on fixing your problem.

How do you guys do it? Go for 2.5 years and not know whether or not your engine will start.

Would you do this with your car?

How in G-d's name do you let it go on for so long? Don't you sometimes NEED your engine, right away? Isn't it a safety issue?

This is a legitimate question, because I want to learn why anyone would let it go for so long.
 
Aug 19, 2004
239
Hunter 35 Vancouver, BC
Hunter owners gnash their teeth!

How do you guys do it? Go for 2.5 years and not know whether or not your engine will start.
Ah!!! The joy of being a Catalina owner rather than a Hunter owner (perhaps the only one :D) is the lack of first hand experience with this issue.

As far as I know, based on my own experience and other reports, the answer is that the engine always starts after no more than 2-3 seconds of uncertainty! What makes the Hunter owners gnash their teeth is that fleeting moment of doubt when this occurs.

What is really an interesting question is the technical reason for this strange outcome. I bow to Stu's superior electrical knowledge, but my theory is that high resistance/impedance causes low voltage and heat at the poor connections. The buildup of heat reduces resistance........ which then solves the problem!
 
Jan 24, 2008
293
Alerion Express 28 Oneida Lake, NY
In Joe's original post, he said "nothing happened", and I presume he means NOTHING.

In my experience with this, there would sometimes be one distinct metallic click, but nothing else. After repeated attempts, the engine would crank and fire.

I resolved the problem by running a 10ga tinned wire from the switch to the solenoid.

Paul
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Neil: Do not be so sure about the Catalina owners. They had a problem with the entire wire harness going bad on some of the C'34's. I do not know if it was a Catalina 34 issue or different models.

I also think that many of the owners that have added relays are masking the real problem of the wire being corroded. The relay gives the circuit enough boost to get enough juice to the starter.

It is sort of amazing that Hunter did NOT use tinned wire but that is the way it is.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Common problem on Yanmar engines due to Yanmar NOT using tinned wiring, especially in the Starter PRIMARY circuit. Replace all the components with TINNED wiring, etc.

Most common (in order of problem)
1. Fuse for the solenoid mounted on the aft/port side of the engine block.
Clean the corrosion from all the connections or replace with Ancor type Tinned fuse holder.

2. ditto above with the entire starter primary wiring circuit .... from the engine battery switch TO the solenoid. Replace everything with tinned wiring/components that show any voltage drop/resistance. Note: check for voltage drop/resistance only after the engine compartment has been hot - dries out the corrosion making it less conductive.

3. Starter push-button. If this button is used anytime there is any voltage drop (consequential amperage rise) the internal contactors of the pushbutton will 'arc' and there will develop a lot of (non-conductive) 'soot' on the contactors .... replace every 2-3 years. $12.00 from a Yanmar shop or get an alternative that uses (tinned wiring, etc.)

To rule out 'solenoid problems' (rare) next time the engine fails to start or turn over .... take an old screwdriver and physically 'jump' between the HOT (large) positive wire on the starter with the + terminal on the solenoid. If this instantly starts the engine (because you just bypassed all the primary circuit) then go back and read steps 1, 2 & 3 above.
 
Aug 19, 2004
239
Hunter 35 Vancouver, BC
Arcing!!

Common problem on Yanmar engines due to Yanmar NOT using tinned wiring, especially in the Starter PRIMARY circuit. Replace all the components with TINNED wiring, etc.

Most common (in order of problem)
1. Fuse for the solenoid mounted on the aft/port side of the engine block.
Clean the corrosion from all the connections or replace with Ancor type Tinned fuse holder.

2. ditto above with the entire starter primary wiring circuit .... from the engine battery switch TO the solenoid. Replace everything with tinned wiring/components that show any voltage drop/resistance. Note: check for voltage drop/resistance only after the engine compartment has been hot - dries out the corrosion making it less conductive.

3. Starter push-button. If this button is used anytime there is any voltage drop (consequential amperage rise) the internal contactors of the pushbutton will 'arc' and there will develop a lot of (non-conductive) 'soot' on the contactors .... replace every 2-3 years. $12.00 from a Yanmar shop or get an alternative that uses (tinned wiring, etc.)

To rule out 'solenoid problems' (rare) next time the engine fails to start or turn over .... take an old screwdriver and physically 'jump' between the HOT (large) positive wire on the starter with the + terminal on the solenoid. If this instantly starts the engine (because you just bypassed all the primary circuit) then go back and read steps 1, 2 & 3 above.
All excellent advice. However the thought of the arcing that will occur when a screw driver is used to short out the primary circuit frightens me. Not a very logical reaction I admit but.......! I prefer the idea of wiring in a momentary switch to do the same thing in an emergency situation.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
All excellent advice. However the thought of the arcing that will occur when a screw driver is used to short out the primary circuit frightens me. Not a very logical reaction I admit but.......! I prefer the idea of wiring in a momentary switch to do the same thing in an emergency situation.
Be firm and determined .... and dont hold the screwdriver in your wet teeth.
Many a time a screwdriver 'jumping' between the HOT battery terminal and the solenoid + terminal will save your day ... and maybe your boat.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,047
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Simply NOT True

Neil: Do not be so sure about the Catalina owners. They had a problem with the entire wire harness going bad on some of the C'34's. I do not know if it was a Catalina 34 issue or different models.
Steve, I'm surprised at you. Ain't true, never happened.:):):)

The engines ALWAYS started. Just not always when you wanted them to, 'cuz they'd start by themselves!:doh::doh::doh:

The REASON the wiring harness on Catalinas was a problem was because they ran ALL of the power from the batteries up to the cockpit panel and the ammeter that used to be there, and then back to the engine. In #10 wire!!!

The wiring was fine and didn't have the reported Yanmar multiple butt connectors.

Associated with the harness replacement was the fact that the connectors used in the older design were trailer connector wire plugs that had this odd tendency to MELT and then connect two wires together that should NOT have ever been touching. See: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4546.0.html Read both pages.

Inherently, as many of you know (and all of you should), an ammeter is a shunt which requires ALL of the current to flow THOROUGH it. The "FIX", as discussed in the wiring harness article linked many times, see below, was to replace the ammeter with a voltmeter, which can be placed anywhere in a circuit across the (+) and (-) and to change the wiring so that it goes directly to the engine.

The wiring harness consisted of two parts, the voltmeter and the new wiring and connectors.

The link to the wiring harness, which no one at Seaward or Catalina would ever admit was faulty (those twerps! - enhancement my foot!) is here: http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-harness-upgrade.html

So; It was a basic design issue, and the harness wiring didn't go bad, the connectors did. This happened on all diesel engine boats produced by Catalina, including the 30, 34, 36, and I'll bet some of the early 28s, but I don't know that for sure.

They only fixed it when they ran outta the big batch of old harnesses Frank had layin' around the factory. It's $ and cents, fellas, their $s and our problems.

What they claimed was "it wasn't so bad when it was 1957 and people didn't have much electrical stuff on their boats. It's only a problem now because those nasty boaters actually want to add electrical stuff to their boats!" Jerks!

Oh, BTW, some folks haven't changed their harness, yet, either. I just can't wait for their boats to start all by themselves or catch fire.

You don't have to have a Catalina - if you have an ammeter in the cockpit panel of your boat, be very suspicious.

[search link: harness history]
 
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