My Xantrex 1800 inverter just smoked and died. It has been in my Morgan 43 since 2007. 18 years is a good run for an inverter. I could get a replacement new unit for $1,700 which would make installation easy, but it would be 25 year old tech and less efficient than newer units. I could get a used one for $500, or a new "Amazon recommmended" 2KW, surge to 4KW generic unit for $200-300, with remote display. There is also a new design Xantex 3KW marine unit for $1,200 which charges LiFE batteries I will be installing, but it is huge and I would have to rearrange a lot of things to make room for it, so not very interested. The $200 2KW unit will probably be less reliable, but for some Bahamas cruising planned next year and E. Carib cruising planned the following year, I could carry a spare and still save a lot of money. Having a spare seems even better reliabilty unless these generic units fry often. But I don't have any experience with these $200-300 generic inverters on a boat. Opinions? On my boat, the inverter is only about comfort as there is no navigation, life or boat safety equipment on the inverter.
Xantrex 1800 just died, do I get similar or cheap generic inverter?
- Thread starter sailbadsinner
- Start date
I don't want to quote or mis-quote our resident electrical guru but I think the body of his work would suggest to not buy cheap crap. Other than that I don't know what he would say. But it would be interesting.
I would do the simple thing and buy the drop in replacement- that is my rule. 18 years is good service and if it met you needs for that time why take a flyer.
I guess the fly in the ointment is the LIFE batteries. Those may cause you to re-evaluate the whole design of your electrical system including charge sources. That may call into question the role of your inverter.
So I'd say knowing where you want to go should lead to a game plan to get there. Now seems like a good time to make that plan.
With regard to inexpensive chargers, I have found them to be very unreliable. I know you are talking about inverters, but the solid state chargers (And inverters) common in the chandleries fail often. Maybe with any bolt of lightning nearby. Or power surge. But I've replaced so many on different boats, different numbers of batteries, different amps, that I consider them unreliable. When I worked at a chandlery they were one of the most returned items.
For short term use on the way to a better system ... maybe.
I would do the simple thing and buy the drop in replacement- that is my rule. 18 years is good service and if it met you needs for that time why take a flyer.
I guess the fly in the ointment is the LIFE batteries. Those may cause you to re-evaluate the whole design of your electrical system including charge sources. That may call into question the role of your inverter.
So I'd say knowing where you want to go should lead to a game plan to get there. Now seems like a good time to make that plan.
With regard to inexpensive chargers, I have found them to be very unreliable. I know you are talking about inverters, but the solid state chargers (And inverters) common in the chandleries fail often. Maybe with any bolt of lightning nearby. Or power surge. But I've replaced so many on different boats, different numbers of batteries, different amps, that I consider them unreliable. When I worked at a chandlery they were one of the most returned items.
For short term use on the way to a better system ... maybe.
What is the maximum load you are using with the inverter? I would look at the Victron Multiplus line if you are planning to switch to LFP.
What makes the $200-$300 unit so inexpensive is that most likely it is not a pure sine wave inverter. That's fine if you have electrical/electronic equipment aboard that does well enough on the square wave inverter, or you just prefer the pure sine wave.
Also, I believe that your Xantrex is a charger/inverter, which the inexpensive ones are not.
My 3k square wave inverter did just fine for me, on a Caribbean charter boat, utilizing what electric tools the cook needed to create meals, such as an air fryer, food processor, microwave, etc. Our computers also did not seem to mind.
Also, I believe that your Xantrex is a charger/inverter, which the inexpensive ones are not.
My 3k square wave inverter did just fine for me, on a Caribbean charter boat, utilizing what electric tools the cook needed to create meals, such as an air fryer, food processor, microwave, etc. Our computers also did not seem to mind.
You should clarify if you are looking for an inverter/charger, or just an inverter. The cheap inverters on Amazon are pure sine wave, as this has become inexpensive to produce nowadays. However, they are inverter-only, and have no charging function. I know many people with them, and observationally it seems to me that the ones that fail do so pretty quickly (usually within the 1yr warranty), while those that don't fail quickly run for a long time. The failure rate hasn't seemed to be high, but this is all guesses from observing from a distance.
We carry a spare one of these cheap ones (3kW $250) in case our Victron Multiplus goes. However, I don't expect it to do the same functions - just get us through until we can get another Multiplus. We use our inverter to run A/C, dive tank compressor, water heater, 120V HO watermaker, and other heavy loads, and I have no confidence one of these cheaper units would handle this full-time.
If we were to coastal cruise with lighter use, I would definitely consider this as a primary, and carry a second one for backup. Maybe not even that, since I could just order another from Amazon and have it in my hands the next day pretty much anywhere I was.
If you rely heavily on your inverter, or need an inverter/charger, then you should consider spending money for better established brands/units. If you only use it to charge computers, run a TV, and other lighter and temporary things, then one of these cheaper units might be good value.
FWIW, I've bought two Victron Multiplus units over the years, and each time the first units shipped were DOA. So spending more doesn't necessarily mean high initial quality. However, Victron (well, their dealers) respond immediately and make things right.
Mark
We carry a spare one of these cheap ones (3kW $250) in case our Victron Multiplus goes. However, I don't expect it to do the same functions - just get us through until we can get another Multiplus. We use our inverter to run A/C, dive tank compressor, water heater, 120V HO watermaker, and other heavy loads, and I have no confidence one of these cheaper units would handle this full-time.
If we were to coastal cruise with lighter use, I would definitely consider this as a primary, and carry a second one for backup. Maybe not even that, since I could just order another from Amazon and have it in my hands the next day pretty much anywhere I was.
If you rely heavily on your inverter, or need an inverter/charger, then you should consider spending money for better established brands/units. If you only use it to charge computers, run a TV, and other lighter and temporary things, then one of these cheaper units might be good value.
FWIW, I've bought two Victron Multiplus units over the years, and each time the first units shipped were DOA. So spending more doesn't necessarily mean high initial quality. However, Victron (well, their dealers) respond immediately and make things right.
Mark
So with the October Amazon Prime Days this week, I ended up buying a Zetawale 2,500 W pure sine wave inverter with ATS for $183. It has the same size and connectors locations, so it will be a drop in. I have done some testing and its idle power drain is essential zero and the efficiency when running at over half capacity to power my biggest-model Brevelle toaster/airfry/convection oven (1,600W) is around 80% (Using the BMS power draw from the LiFe Bluetooth battery app. so may not be accurate.) The automatic Transfer Switch is a relay, rather than a sine wave phase match electrical cirucuit, so that could trigger a reboot on future internet routers. The remote has on/off and a light on/off swich, which is better than many $1k inverters. The sine wave looks good on the scope, but I didn't study its response to different loads. So far, looks like a good decision.
People made the point than an integrated charger/inverter that can charge my future LiFe batteries might be a better choice. I did find that the 150 Ah chargers in the $1,500 Xantrex integrated units looks better than the biggest stand alone charger I found at about 80 Ah. The reliability reviews from the Zetawale inverter, which is bought by the tousands every month by construction workers and other daily users were good. But the reviews on the high capacaity LiFe stand alones were not that good. (the volume purchasers of the Inverters are putting them on vehicle charging systems.)
Another thing I noted in my research is that the typical LiFe batteries we are using have a BMS limit of 4 batteries in series, so that limits the max size of a single bank to 4x whatever battery you are buying. Zantrex has a 48v integrated system which has a DC/DC converter for powering your 12V devices. At 48V, you can build a 4S4P battery bank, or 16 times the power of whatever battery you are using and build a massive LiFe battery bank. But the 660 Ah LiFe bank I recently bought the batteries for seems like plenty for my solar/wind/engine charging capacity. I'm an island hopper, hot a Pacific crosser.
People made the point than an integrated charger/inverter that can charge my future LiFe batteries might be a better choice. I did find that the 150 Ah chargers in the $1,500 Xantrex integrated units looks better than the biggest stand alone charger I found at about 80 Ah. The reliability reviews from the Zetawale inverter, which is bought by the tousands every month by construction workers and other daily users were good. But the reviews on the high capacaity LiFe stand alones were not that good. (the volume purchasers of the Inverters are putting them on vehicle charging systems.)
Another thing I noted in my research is that the typical LiFe batteries we are using have a BMS limit of 4 batteries in series, so that limits the max size of a single bank to 4x whatever battery you are buying. Zantrex has a 48v integrated system which has a DC/DC converter for powering your 12V devices. At 48V, you can build a 4S4P battery bank, or 16 times the power of whatever battery you are using and build a massive LiFe battery bank. But the 660 Ah LiFe bank I recently bought the batteries for seems like plenty for my solar/wind/engine charging capacity. I'm an island hopper, hot a Pacific crosser.
Is the limit four batteries in series or four batteries in parallel? I understand the series limit, but parallel really shouldn't have a limit, or at least not that low.
If the limit is only for series, then that only affects voltage, and few are going to go above 48V. If there is no limit to parallel, then the bank can be made whatever size is needed from whatever batteries you buy.
Mark
If the limit is only for series, then that only affects voltage, and few are going to go above 48V. If there is no limit to parallel, then the bank can be made whatever size is needed from whatever batteries you buy.
Mark
The standard BMS that comes in the 12v LIFe batteries most of us are installing in our boats say the limit is 4s4p, i.e. 4 in parallel and 4 in series, so 48vs and 4 of those in parallel as the maximum configuration. As you mentioned, adding more in series ups the voltage and this is a good way to burn things out. But is there really a 4 battery parallel limit or is that just their warranty? The possible complexity there is that the batteries need to equalize and a big current between them could trip the BMS and take the unit offline, which would mean not equalizing, just resetting over and over again. It may be that there is logic in the BMS to deal with that, but it is limited to 4 parallel batteries.
I happen to be also installing a whole-home solar/battery inverter system which will run my entire 200 AM house service from batteries during temporary high electric rates--my utility will pay for my batteries if I let them switch me to backup when they have generation shortfalls. Per my local code officials, I need to adhere to Int Fire Code rules, so that means UL listed batteries. The LiFe batteries I'm using for the Sol-Ark 15K Inverter I'm installing are 48 v and the maker, Ecoworthy, supports up to 16 of them in parallel. It has bluetooth BMS, so little doubt they are using a standard BMS board, so they are exceeding that limit. But part of their system is they have RS485, CAN and RS232 communication between the batteries. And to get the UL9540 approval, they had to do a lot of testing. Given such tested configurations are available, I would not exceed the standard 4P limit on the typical LiFe 12 v battery.
I happen to be also installing a whole-home solar/battery inverter system which will run my entire 200 AM house service from batteries during temporary high electric rates--my utility will pay for my batteries if I let them switch me to backup when they have generation shortfalls. Per my local code officials, I need to adhere to Int Fire Code rules, so that means UL listed batteries. The LiFe batteries I'm using for the Sol-Ark 15K Inverter I'm installing are 48 v and the maker, Ecoworthy, supports up to 16 of them in parallel. It has bluetooth BMS, so little doubt they are using a standard BMS board, so they are exceeding that limit. But part of their system is they have RS485, CAN and RS232 communication between the batteries. And to get the UL9540 approval, they had to do a lot of testing. Given such tested configurations are available, I would not exceed the standard 4P limit on the typical LiFe 12 v battery.
RE: My Xantrex 1800 inverter just smoked and died. It has been in my Morgan 43 since 2007. 18 years is a good run for an inverter.
Right. Here I go.
First off, I am in no way knocking you Sadbadsinner.
I was a Marine Port Engineer in Singapore and everyday came across mechanical and electrical equipment that was ancient, had seen a hard life and was still running.
An inverter has NO MOVING PARTS TO WEAR. No gears, bearings , oil pumps, piston rings.
It has NO DELICATE ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS. No vacuum tubes, no rheostats, no arcing contacts.
It is (or should be) protected from thermal or current overload.
What is there to "smoke " on a $1700 piece of equipment, if it is well made and reasonably well maintained?
In my view it should last for ever! Not just 18 years of intermittent use.
18 year? Is that 18 years of continuous use? Or 18 years of light intermittent use?
My guess is the latter. What would the total hours of use add up to?
Does anyone remember " A lifetime Guarantee" ?
I got onto the Xantrex page to look for their Warranty.
ONE YEAR on a $1700 piece of equipment. Shows how confident they are in their quality.
"Warranty
What does this warranty cover? This Limited Warranty is provided by Xantrex Technology, Inc.
(“Xantrex”) and covers defects in workmanship and materials in your Xantrex PRO Inverter (XM 1800
or XM 1000). This warranty period lasts for 1 year from the date of purchase at the point of sale to you,
the original end user customer. You require proof of purchase to make warranty claims."
RE: The $200 2KW unit will probably be less reliable,
I remember the Shoei Motorcycle helmet company trying to sell a $7000 helmet.
Their sale pitch was, How much is your head worth? I bought a $150 Bell.
Guess I don't value my head.
RE: But I don't have any experience with these $200-300 generic inverters on a boat. Opinions?
You have been dealt a variety of valid opinions here from:
I have found them to be very unreliable.
I would look at the Victron Multiplus line if you are planning to switch to LFP.
There are very few places on a boat where cheaper is better.
We carry a spare one of these cheap ones (3kW $250) in case our Victron Multiplus goes.
I reckon that after all this you have made the right choice.
So with the October Amazon Prime Days this week, I ended up buying a Zetawale 2,500 W pure sine wave inverter with ATS for $183.
I notice that it come with a 12 month warranty and that is pretty well the same as the 1 year warranty for the Xantrex.
Over and out
gary
Right. Here I go.
First off, I am in no way knocking you Sadbadsinner.
I was a Marine Port Engineer in Singapore and everyday came across mechanical and electrical equipment that was ancient, had seen a hard life and was still running.
An inverter has NO MOVING PARTS TO WEAR. No gears, bearings , oil pumps, piston rings.
It has NO DELICATE ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS. No vacuum tubes, no rheostats, no arcing contacts.
It is (or should be) protected from thermal or current overload.
What is there to "smoke " on a $1700 piece of equipment, if it is well made and reasonably well maintained?
In my view it should last for ever! Not just 18 years of intermittent use.
18 year? Is that 18 years of continuous use? Or 18 years of light intermittent use?
My guess is the latter. What would the total hours of use add up to?
Does anyone remember " A lifetime Guarantee" ?
I got onto the Xantrex page to look for their Warranty.
ONE YEAR on a $1700 piece of equipment. Shows how confident they are in their quality.
"Warranty
What does this warranty cover? This Limited Warranty is provided by Xantrex Technology, Inc.
(“Xantrex”) and covers defects in workmanship and materials in your Xantrex PRO Inverter (XM 1800
or XM 1000). This warranty period lasts for 1 year from the date of purchase at the point of sale to you,
the original end user customer. You require proof of purchase to make warranty claims."
RE: The $200 2KW unit will probably be less reliable,
I remember the Shoei Motorcycle helmet company trying to sell a $7000 helmet.
Their sale pitch was, How much is your head worth? I bought a $150 Bell.
Guess I don't value my head.
RE: But I don't have any experience with these $200-300 generic inverters on a boat. Opinions?
You have been dealt a variety of valid opinions here from:
I have found them to be very unreliable.
I would look at the Victron Multiplus line if you are planning to switch to LFP.
There are very few places on a boat where cheaper is better.
We carry a spare one of these cheap ones (3kW $250) in case our Victron Multiplus goes.
I reckon that after all this you have made the right choice.
So with the October Amazon Prime Days this week, I ended up buying a Zetawale 2,500 W pure sine wave inverter with ATS for $183.
I notice that it come with a 12 month warranty and that is pretty well the same as the 1 year warranty for the Xantrex.
Over and out
gary
Cheaply spec'd capacitors and marginal FET's, or FET's with insufficient cooling design. Both of which Xantrex is well-known for in some of their line of products. Probably the cheap Amazon ones also, but they are a lot less expensive than Xantrex.
And I think the OP used "smoked" as a synonym for failure, not actually burning. But with Xantrex, I can't be too sure about that.
These small and inexpensive inverters use high frequency switching and filtering with numerous small transformers and banks of FET's and filtering capacitors. There is a lot to go wrong compared to a line frequency unit that uses a single large transformer and relatively few robust FET's and filtering capacitors.
Mark
