Wiring a minn kota onboard alternator charger

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Jun 30, 2007
277
Macgregor - Spring Creek, FL
I'm thinking towards adding a Minn Kota onboard alternator charger (MK-1_DC), single bank, to run from my cranking battery (if that's where it runs from:confused:) to another deep cycle battery under my sink so that excess charge from the motor's alternator will be fed to my second battery and not drain my cranking battery while at anchor. Has anyone done this? And if so, how does it hook up? The biggy is do any wires have to go to the motor's alternator? Any info would be deeply appreciated.:D
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
To me it looks like it..............

http://www.minnkotamotors.com/products/battery_chargers/dc_alternator.aspx

.................... is really set up to help people with trolling motors that have banks of batteries to output more than 12 volts to their trolling motors and the charger has to work with batteries that are run in series and that isn't your case. Now I might be wrong. I wouldn't spend the money on one of these as there is less expensive options for what you are trying to do.

You could go with an...........



http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/electrical/sd422750/index.htm

.............. 1 or 2 or Both switch and manually select which batter is being charged or used.

You could also use a.............




http://www.bigedgesports.com/product.asp?pid=2084117&rf=gbase

............... solid state isolator like the one above or I think the smallest one from minnkotamotors.

.............. or use a............



http://www.amazon.com/PAC-80-Power-Relay-Battery-Isolator/dp/B000K52EAY

............. solenoid (relay) type isolator that would charge the battery under the sink when the engine is running along with the other one. With the outboard off it would disconnect the outboard battery from the other one so you wouldn't drain it.

The problem I see with both of the above is they both use some electricity to operate and if you have a small outboard that is only maybe putting out 6 amps you want all of those amps to go into your batteries. If it is a car/truck with a 60-100 amp alternator it doesn't matter. For that reason I would go with the manual switch. Of course that means you can't forget to use it, but you won't :).

I run one of the cheap RV ones on my pickup to isolate the battery in my teardrop from the main one in the truck and it has always worked and was less than $20. They are not really made for a marine environment, but if the boat is trailered and not in the water all the time I would have no problem using one. In the boat I use the manual switch.

To use any of these you will have to get to the wire coming from the outboards alternator, but it doesn't have to be right at the outboard necessarily. A lot will depend if you have one of the batteries in the Laz and/or if you use the isolator or manual switch and if you now have a wire going to the cabin from the outboard alternator.

If you need help PM me and I could call you and go through this easier than typing it all here,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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Apr 30, 2006
610
Macgregor 26s Kemah, TX
There are others on this forum, such as Walt, who know a lot more about this sort of thing than I do, but that's never stopped me before....
On my old boat, which had an inboard diesel and a good size alternator, I kept the battery switch like the one in Sum's first picture, on Off when I was away from the boat. I had a 110v charger with a separate charging circuit for each battery. When I was on the boat but the engine was off, I put the switch to 1 or 2 but never both. Before I turned on the engine, I put the switch to Both so that the alternator would charge both. As soon as I turned the engine off, I switched to 1 or 2. This routine worked very well for years. I didn't have an isolator but the charger seemed to keep them separate well enough.
With the Macgregor, I don't have a 110 power source, so no built in charger. But my power needs are so much less that I alternate the batteries with a solar panel and that has worked well so far.
 
Jun 30, 2007
277
Macgregor - Spring Creek, FL
Thanks Sum and Robspan. The good old switch is a definite, inexpensive solution. The MK-1 from minn kota sends excess charge from the cranking battery to one battery only be it a trolling battery or accessories battery such as I have and isolates automatically the second battery from the starting battery when the engine is shut off. This all sounds good to me but like you say, Sum, $80 bucks is alot to spend for something that can be achieved with an isolater switch. Robspan, if you put the switch on all to crank up with and had an almost dead second battery, wouldn't the almost dead battery drain the cranking battery?
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
........... if you put the switch on all to crank up with and had an almost dead second battery, wouldn't the almost dead battery drain the cranking battery?
From what I know the two batteries might come close to the same level over time, but not in the time it would take to start the outboard.

I'll charge mine at the same time with either the...........



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outside-22.html

............. solar panel or the ...........



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outside-14.html

.................. generator or both and when done check the voltages on both separately and they are usually .1 to .2 volts different. They are different ages and different manufactures. I'm going to take the older one out and replace it with a new one just like the one I'll leave in,

Sum


Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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Jun 5, 2004
997
Macgregor 26D Boise
Hi you guys

I like the "off the shelf" engineering that is shown above. I have a couple of comments about the solid state battery isolaters and the relay types, if this route is chosen. In the automotive maintenence field, the solid state isolaters have a bad habit of failing, either to allow charging or to isolate the battery, so buy a good one. As far as using a relay goes, besides the downside of the constant drain during usage, there are two types of relays: intermittant and continuous duty. Make sure you get a continuous duty relay for this application (it will cost more).
 
Apr 30, 2006
610
Macgregor 26s Kemah, TX
Beamreach,
The alternators on our small outboards are so lame that a couple of hours motoring wouldn't throw much of a charge into an almost dead battery. With the switch on Both, there might be some transfer of charge from the full to the empty battery. But the total amp hour capacity of both batteries would theoretically stay the same.

If you're out for more than a day or two, the problem is always going to be how to compensate for the drain. In my experience, one solar panel probably won't do it. The best solution IMHO is what Sum has: a small generator which can power a 15-25 amp battery charger. One very nice thing about our boats is that if the batteries go south, you can always pull-start the outboard. I couldn't do THAT with an inboard diesel!
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Maine Sail (the moderator here) can correct me .. but he did an experiment posted on the main forum where he connected a good battery and a bad battery. I don't know how long this went on but he measured something like 70 amps flowing from the good to the bad. In this case, the bad battery was real bad.. but it would seem to me that you are gong to have some loss of charge capacity doing this - ie, its not like pouring water from one cup to another where you end up with same amount of water, you would lose some. On the other hand, if your trying to start a motor, the two batteries would in theory have lower internal impedance. When my batteries were wore out, I noticed the internal impedance had gone up a fair amount so who knows, maybe in some cases, switching them together might help - but Id probably only do it in an emergency.

If your charging with a lot of current, switching the batteries together probably is good thing as the pair of batteries will accept higher current - if its available. But charging with small currents like solar or an outboard alternator... don't know but I wouldn't do it. I'm guessing you will shorten the life of at least one of the batteries.

I only have one battery bank - no switches so really don't know a good solution for charging the two battery bank (one of the reasons I only have one). As mentioned, the battery isolators always draw some current. Seems hard to find specs but I believe I saw one (relay type) which had a "monitor" current of about 25ma and an "on" current of 200 ma. This isn't much.. but over a week, the 25 ma monitor current adds up to 4.2 amp hours. On my old Honda, I would have had to run the outboard for nearly two hours just to make up for what the isolator burned up sitting doing nothing during the week. With a 50 amp alternator, the isolators make a lot of sense.. but not for just an outboard alternator. On the other hand, a 40 watt solar panel (in a good location) would contribute maybe 70 to 100 amp hours during the week. So the 4.2 amp hour loss of the isolator isn't such a big deal and the convenience of not messing with the switch would be nice. However, when the isolator turned on, it might draw 200 ma just to run the relay. The 40 watt panel is putting out about 2 amps so the isolator used up 10% of that just being on. If the boat is on an AC charger during the week, the isolator probably makes a lot of sense.

My battery bank is now two six volt golf cart batteries (since about a month ago). I like just one big ass battery that I know a lot about the state of - and no switches. I had two 12 volt batteries in parallel and believe that if you do this, either use maintenance free batteries (like AGM) or you need to check the water a LOT. I would go three months and every time find one battery pretty much needing a half gallon of water and the other battery nearly full. The battery which needed the water was really trashed when I replaced them. I think there is some mechanism going on which accelerates the water loss of one of the batteries when they are connected in parallel. So I went to the two six volt batteries in series to try this time.
 
Apr 30, 2006
610
Macgregor 26s Kemah, TX
Thanks Walt,

To summarize for those of us with two 12v batteries, the standard switch and an outboard alternator:
1) Probably not a good idea to use the Both or All setting
2) Put the switch on 1 or 2 when we're using current (ie, at anchor), or charging through the outboard alternator
3) Put the switch on Off when we leave
4) Charge each battery separately

How does the above sound? If it sounds OK, do we really need an isolator?
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Thanks Walt,

To summarize for those of us with two 12v batteries, the standard switch and an outboard alternator:
1) Probably not a good idea to use the Both or All setting
2) Put the switch on 1 or 2 when we're using current (ie, at anchor), or charging through the outboard alternator
3) Put the switch on Off when we leave
4) Charge each battery separately

How does the above sound? If it sounds OK, do we really need an isolator?
Well that was what I was doing until Walt suggested to me that my two batteries might/would? charge faster if I had the switch on "both".

Now I have a charging system using the car alternator that has a potential of putting out 60 amps if the batteries would accept that much whereas the outboard alternator can only put out 6 amps max. Is that the reason you suggested that Walt?

I use to charge the batteries one at a time with the alternator watching their voltage with a ....................



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/inside-12.html

........................digital meter that gives voltage to a tenth of a volt. When I would get one up to 14.1 to 14.3 with the alternator I would switch to the other. So on the last trip of 18 days I would charge them both at the same time and it seemed to be faster and I can see the logic as the alternator had the ability to supply all of the current either one could take at any moment of charge. One factor that stopped this from being a fair test with what I did before is that I had added the 40 watt solar panel, so the batteries weren't run down as much as before. Sometimes though I wouldn't charge them every day and then they were lower. With the solar panel and charging like this my charging times running the generator went down from about 40 minutes a day to about 15 to 20 on the average.

Now I use a lot of electricity with the CPAP machine I run at night, about 36 to 45 amp/hours a day. Our other main user is the depth finder that we run all the time we are underway. I don't know at this point what it uses, but will once I add my amp meter to the system.

Since I now charge both batteries at the same time I use them usually at the same time. I figure it is better on them to not draw them down as far as using them by themselves. If I check them separately with the volt meter they still are never exactly the same voltage, but only vary by .1 to .2 volts. They are different ages and different manufactures and sizes.

Now that I use the system like this maybe I'll try two 6 volt batteries like Walt in the future.

Rob I don't have a generator that runs a battery charger, the system charges the batteries directly with the alternator. This is more efficient than running a generator that then powers a battery charger.

I'm about ready to order a second solar panel. It will be at least another 40 watt and I think I might be able to add an 80 watt. An 80 watt is only a little over $200 now. We are going to add a frig/freeze that runs with a real compressor to the boat and do away with the ice problem on our long trips. That is one reason to increase the solar panels.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Sumner, your electrical needs are somewhat unique with the Cpap as it takes a lot of current and I would consider it a safety item - and with safety, backup is a very good idea. You have a very nice solution with the external alternator gas engine but it would make no sense for my application. But... works very well for what you need. Yup, I think I would only charge two batteries when you have lots of current like when running the "sumner power max 5000 alternator". I don't have direct experience connecting up two different 12 volt batteries with low current chargers like solar- so cant say for sure it will result in lower life in the batteries or inefficient charging- but certainly suspect this is the case. All the things we are talking about here probably don't matter much in the "one year" time frame. The two Walmart 12 volt batteries I previously bought had two fairly good seasons and limped through a third season and maybe that is OK given that I paid probably $65 per battery?? I bought the 6 volt batteries at Sams club so got cheap ones again but part of the reason for doing this was just to see if they lasted longer (hoping for 5 years) and don't have the same issue of boiling off the water in one of the batteries.

Yup.. solar works very well in these sailboats. Im pretty much over charged and over batteried now with 60 watts of solar, outboard alternator, over 200 amp hours of battery and no big power loads. The powered ice chest looked pretty nice but it looks like they are fairly heavy - like over 40 pounds. My boat has been on a diet for a while now..but once again, this is application specific and probably only matters to me. If I was using the boat for longer trips like Sumner (maybe some day, hopefully not too long from now), the powered cooler would be very nice!!!
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Sumner, your electrical needs are somewhat unique with the Cpap as it takes a lot of current and I would consider it a safety item - and with safety, backup is a very good idea. You have a very nice solution with the external alternator gas engine but it would make no sense for my application.
Yes I don't like it now if I don't have the CPAP machine working and it is a necessary evil. For others I think a 40 watt panel is plenty. If they just day sail or weekend sail charging 1 or 2 batteries before going out is probably fine. I'll bet the two 6 volt batteries does work better and when our current batteries die I think we'll try that. Did you buy 'golf cart' batteries or car batteries or does Sam's have a 6 volt RV battery.

..........If I was using the boat for longer trips like Sumner (maybe some day, hopefully not too long from now), the powered cooler would be very nice!!!
We are looking forward to the frig (no more food floating around in the water) and think the added solar panel will supply almost all of it's electrical needs. As for as the weight thing I actually think it will be a lighter load in the boat, but the way we load the boat up for trips I don't think it makes a difference. Now we take two coolers and whenever we get ice we get as much as we can and that is usually about 5 blocks or bags, so that is 50 lbs. or so right there. We still might take two coolers, the........



.............. 12 volt frig. and...........



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/inside-11.html

.................. one of the ones we have now. We would load the old one up with frozen pre-prepared food and use it over the first week. When that is gone we would use the cooler to put trash in. Since the frig doesn't loose space to ice in it we figure the 50 quart will hold as much as we now carry in two with ice in them. We have measured to be sure. Also now we can take pop and beer and cool it as needed, so we don't have to load the cooler with it and we won't be putting hot cans of pop and beer in a cooler and depleting the ice. The frig is .............

http://www.americanrvcompany.com/Do...reezer-ACDC-CF-50-Trailer-Camper-RV_p_84.html

....................about $600, not cheap, but if we get to do the 3 month trip to Florida next fall we would probably have to buy $200-$300 worth of ice for just that one trip. The other really important feature for us is we like to stay out and we don't stay in marinas and such, so this way there is no need to return to 'civilization' every 5-7 days for ice. Heck we just might disappear :dance:

Walt you are going to really enjoy it when you can take some long trips. You might not even mind the boat going a little slower :). I'm going to put a barrier coat on the bottom of our boat and then ablative for the trip to Florida and who knows where else. At that time I'm thinking of raising the water like mark some. Hey if the water line is higher then the boat is longer and should go faster, right :D.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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Jun 3, 2004
1,863
Macgregor 25 So. Cal.
The ablative paint may keep you out of some of the California lakes just like a 2 stroke motor does.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
6 volt golf cart batteries from Sams.. (at least in S. Denver). I think different stores might carry a different brand/manufacture.
 

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Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
6 volt golf cart batteries from Sams.. (at least in S. Denver). I think different stores might carry a different brand/manufacture.
Thanks,

Sum
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
In the main forum, there is a thread on charging batteries and this combiner was mentioned (well almost, the heavier duty one was mentioned)

http://www.yandina.com/c100InfoR3.htm

I like this spec:
Draws no current when batteries are not being charged

And this one is not bad:
Draws less than 150 milliamps when charging is in progress

If your alternator is putting out 3 amps, 150 ma is only 5%.. not too bad.

It looks pretty good (and a good price) for the application of having the main charging (outboard, solar, battery maintainer) all go to the main battery and having this combiner keep the backup battery charged.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
........It looks pretty good (and a good price) for the application of having the main charging (outboard, solar, battery maintainer) all go to the main battery and having this combiner keep the backup battery charged.
Walt the way I see the combiner working is any time there is over about 13.3 volts going to the batteries from an alternator, solar panel or a generator the combiner combines that output to both batteries.

http://www.yandina.com/combInfo.htm

The outboard starting battery and/or backup battery would be connected to the charging source, but if it was charged wouldn't take much of the charging current, most would go to the battery that needed it. As soon as the charging voltage dropped below 13.3 then they would be isolated again from one another.



Defender has one for $62 ...............

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|51495|606044&id=605576

After reading the other thread I was going to get one, but then after thinking about your 6 volt batteries I think that option wins if I can fit the two batteries in. If I do this I will only have one bank for the cabin and for starting the new outboard. If for some reason the batteries go dead the outboard will pull start. My only concern is that deep cycle batteries usually aren't good at the high current a starter needs, but I'm thinking that the starter on the 9 HP Tohatsu won't draw that much.

I like the fact you get more amp/hours for less money with the 6 volt batteries and they are a more true deep cycle battery and won't be hurt as much if deep cycled vs. an RV or car battery. Also as we have talked about before my alternator would charge the two batteries faster probably than having 2 12 volt batteries at different states of charge.

We either need to buy a 12 volt battery and the combiner or two 6 volt batteries. Money wise I think that is about a wash and the 6 volts should prove to be better. If I stayed with two 12 volt batteries I would get the combiner and have the outboard wired to one bank at all times like they showed in that thread and then never have to worry about cooking the diodes in the outboard if I forgot and had the 1-2-Both switch switched to off.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
You can get the size of the 6 volt batteries on line - I had the plastic box's for group 27 and the 6 volt batteries fit in the box in the length/width - but are a little too tall to get the lid fully on. So the plastic lid in mine sits on top of the batteries - but the strap holding the battery down still seems to work fine. Ill find out soon if I have any issue starting.

You could be right about having all the charging sources go to the starter battery and then combiner charges the main battery when the starter battery is full. Don't know. Ive heard of people doing it both ways. Lots of ways to hook that up. Since an under 10 hp motor is fairly easy to pull start so doesn't pose a dire emergency if you lose the battery, I think we have additional flexibility on how to do this. Probably a good topic to get ideas here.
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
...You could be right about having all the charging sources go to the starter battery and then combiner charges the main battery when the starter battery is full. .....
That isn't what I was trying to express. Looking at the way the combiner works is that any time the combiner sees the charging voltage over 13.3 volts it will put the two batteries in parallel and they will charge depending on their state of charge and not one then the other. Maybe that is what you are also saying above.

Back to the outboard starter circuit for a moment. I've tried with no luck to find out how many amps the starter draws. I realize if the motor is cold it is probably more than if it is warm, but you would think they would make this information available if someone like us wants a longer run from the battery to the outboard than their standard length cables. Do you think the wire size they use is 8? I found one post where someone said the wires "looked" to be size 8 and an electrician he consulted felt size 6 was adequate. If I need to go up a size or two from my #8 wires I might have to re-think this.

If you get your outboard soon will you be able to start it? Maybe you could see what the starting amps are :)?

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
That isn't what I was trying to express. Looking at the way the combiner works is that any time the combiner sees the charging voltage over 13.3 volts it will put the two batteries in parallel and they will charge depending on their state of charge and not one then the other.
I think this is correct. The question is which battery should you connect up the devices you charge with? Ie, which battery gets charged first - and which battery gets charged after the other one has reached 13.3 volts..

Ill see if I cant measure the starter current. Hopefully its less than 80 amps or Ill being buying a new expensive higher amp fuse.. No way will I be able to wait until "spring" to fire it up. We get a lot of 50-60F days in Jan..

I was looking at a 15 hp Mercury a few days ago and "thought" the wire might have been 8 gauge.. but just don't know. It looked to be maybe between 1/4 to 5/16 in diameter. I can also let you know this when I get the outboard sometime after Jan 5.
 
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