WINDLASS

[Captain Larry-DH]

All chain is great, especially if you have a 20,000 pound boat. The OP (and I) have boats closer to 10,000 pounds. That makes it a bit less practical to carry all chain, especially if one might have to anchor in depths of 50 feet or more which, at least around here, is not that unusual.

True on the west coast and Pacific rim, but not relevant for the OP in Florida and Bahamas. He should be able to anchor in 7-15 ft of water in any case never more than 20. That means he could keep 150 feet of chain in his locker and add another 100 ft of nylon brait backing with a weight cost of about #150 overall. He’d probably never need to use the backing. I’d add a Mantus swivel (the best) and a new gen anchor, at least 35# (e.g. Mantus/Rocna). Edit: #45 if cruising the Bahamas and being ready for the frequent northers.
I found this spec table for grade 40 chain:

Nominal Chain Size (A)	WLL (lbs)*	Weight (lbs/ft)
1/4"	2600	0.69
5/16"	3900	0.83

 

[Screen Saver]

Silly me I was hoping to avoid the debate between HDG (Hot Dipped Galvanized) and SS
But in answer to some of the questions:
To refresh my statement and put it in context I would have bought SS chain knowing now what I know and doing what I have done. Cruising about 16 years living on board, about 120,000nm , four anchor chains later and broke one chain. 50ft mono about 20 tons .

Some like numbers, here ya go for 3/8 anchor chain
Safe working load of G30 is about 2650lbs
Safe working load of G40 is about 5400lbs
Safe working load of High Tensile is about 5400ilbs
Safe working load of Stainless chain is about 3500lbs
Safe working load of BBB is 2650lbs

Most of us would be quite fine G30 or BBB. My boat was delivered new with 8mm (5/16)G30, a safe working load of 1900lbs. So clearly Hunter didn’t think it was going to break and my SS chain that I should have bought has a SWL .3500lbs about 80% more than how it as delivered.

Those that know me, would know I test as much as possible. So how do I really know the load on my anchor gear. Very hard for the average cruiser to test this. So in the early days I made up a snubber with a 5 ton breaking strength (not SWL) It wasn’t long after I made it, that I broke it. I was thinking WTF I have anchor chain at 1900lbs (about 1ton) SWL and just broke a snubber (in Syndey harbor I might add) that was rated at 5 ton breaking. After suggesting to Whitworths there rope wasn’t as rated I bought some more and had it tested at CSIRO along with a piece of my chain. The snubber rope in fact broke just under 5 ton in a slow test and my chain broke at just over 7 ton.. Then I was told that typical the safety factor on chain is at least 5:1 up to about 7 :1 and up to 12:1 on rope. So now I knew that in about 60knots of wind I could get 5 ton load on my chain. which was clearly more than the SWL of what I had but less than breaking.

So over the years cruisers went from BBB, to G30, G40,G70 increasing the SWL

How many of you have a SS shackle or SS swivel connecting your chain to you anchor. A Gal swivel would for sure wear off the Gal quite quick I would imagine and most of the swivels I have seen on cruisers boats are SS. How many of you know that your Gal shackle is also G40 and not BBB or G30. So when my ordinal 5/16 chain wore out I upped the size and decided to stick wiht my 5/16 Stainless shackle as a test and I added a 3/8 Stainless shackle in parallel so I could sleep at night. The idea being to prove how long and just how good SS was. 12 years later it was still there doing all the work and my backup 3/8 one was doing nothing

Those that don’t know suggest stainless steel is not good underwater as an anchor chain. That is in fact totally wrong. Stainless by nature gets its protection in part from being in and out of water (oxidization), like an anchor chain. Yep its no good as a mooring shackle always down there for sure, but its many times better as a material for going in and out of salt water.

So the anchor chain I broke was due to lack of knowledge on my part and because it was Galvanized chain. Had it been stainless, this would not have happened, and I was lucky. In essence due to my own lack of knowledge as my chain started to age I inspected it around the first 3 or 4m from the anchor and then again around 20m mark and again around 40m mark, all was good. Of course up around the 40m mark was nearly like new. Interestingly so to was the 3 &4m mark. What I did not realize at the time was the ware point is in my case is around 15M to 20M mark, ie the point where the chain is constantly being lifted up and down off the bottom at anchor. It wares in the corner of the links where they touch and it works. Of course because its working there it seldom show sign of rust because its working. But for example I have found an 8mm chain can easily become 6mm in the corner of the links at this ware point. Without close inspection parting each link to the first timer (ie me then) it can and was missed, so yep in 40knots the chain broke. This would not have happened with SS.

Moreover one of the so called benefit of a steel Gal chain is its said to not be so brittle you get warning signs etc. Well of course that’s not true either when you're talking HT steel like G40 etc.

SS chain will stack much better, it will not bunch up at the windlass. Those that have small anchor lockers will not need to be up the front pushing the chain around with a stick or having it jam.

If your always in a 1st world country the chances are pretty good you can flip your old Gal chain around and get it re galvanized. But I can assure you many that do this have all sorts of trouble and centrifugal galvanizers capable of doing 60+ meters of chain are not on every corner. Then getting your chain to and from them in a foreign country, yep doable for shore but a challenge with questionable quality.

You will not need to replace SS chain, it in fact loves being in and out of water.

Right now 4 chains later I'm only mildly better of financially. Once I replace this one, it will be about breakeven dollar wise. I could go on but this subject is a bit like Cat’s verse Mono’s or the old argument about Led Acid verse LifePo4. I think the tide is turning on that debate. SS chain perhaps has a bit further to go, and Cat Verse Mono' I expect will be around long after me. Happy cruising

 

[Screen Saver]

I'd also like to know more on where you're coming from here. Are you just getting more service life than galvanized chain since you spend a lot of time on the hook?

Just to be clear, I have Gal chain, but should have bought SS chain originally, and then yes i would have got significantly better life and a bunch of other advantages as I noted earlier today

 

[Screen Saver]

I'm not going to argue with you, simply put some numbers out there.

3/8 grade 43 (high strength) galvanized chain has a strength of 5,400 pounds and costs $7.60 a foot
3/8 316 stainless chain has a strength of 3500 pounds and costs $42.40 a foot.

I'm sure you can find other prices, those are straight from McMaster. they are put out there just for comparison.

So I don't quite get double the strength for the same size chain, and the stainless costs about 5X the cost of the galvanized chain. I can buy a lot of galvanized chain for what I'd spend on stainless, and it's stronger. There is no greater reliability, and some will say that the stainless is actually less reliable. As an FYI, 316 stainless steel is not a material that is considered acceptable for submersed use in sea water from a metallurgical point of view. Hot dipped galvanized is.

You can buy stainless if you want. But I have better things to spend my money on....


I don't think there is one single anchor that is "the best". I think all modern anchors are far better then the earlier anchors and that you should get the name brand, not a knock-off....



This is a great point, but is very difficult to assess. Especially over time. A supplier may sell spare parts at the time of purchase, but may not sell them at the time of needing them.

dj

My anchor comment was based on tests and Llyods certification, but yea there are other good ones out there just not for me The Windlass support thing brushes etc. It actually didn't change, lewmar neither then nor even now provide brushes for example. Now you cant even buy just the motor for Lewmar which was about 500 to 800 usd, now they force you to buy motor and gearbox. There motor is in no way protected from water damage. The mild steel unprotected will rust out in months. I actually coved mine in heat shrink all be it very late. For something in this environment Lewmar should be shot.

 

[American_Mainsail]

Thanks for sharing your first-hand experience with us, @Screen Saver. It’s conversations like this that make this such a great forum.

For the record, it would be really interesting to have some stainless anchor chain with some hours on pull tested to failure. I’ve seen documented cases of SS mooring chain becoming brittle, but I suspect that this has to do with twisting loads created stress cracks, or possibly low oxygen environments in sediment preventing the protective layer on the SS from forming. I think that anchor chain sees different loads than a mooring chain, and certainly isn’t submerged permanently like mooring chain is.

 

[dLj]

Silly me I was hoping to avoid the debate between HDG (Hot Dipped Galvanized) and SS

This sounds like a rather less than honest statement. Given the length to which you went through the rest of your statements, it seems to me you clearly were looking for, perhaps not a debate, but certainly a conversation.

But in answer to some of the questions:
To refresh my statement and put it in context I would have bought SS chain knowing now what I know and doing what I have done. Cruising about 16 years living on board, about 120,000nm , four anchor chains later and broke one chain. 50ft mono about 20 tons .

Some like numbers, here ya go for 3/8 anchor chain
Safe working load of G30 is about 2650lbs
Safe working load of G40 is about 5400lbs
Safe working load of High Tensile is about 5400ilbs
Safe working load of Stainless chain is about 3500lbs
Safe working load of BBB is 2650lbs

Most of us would be quite fine G30 or BBB. My boat was delivered new with 8mm (5/16)G30, a safe working load of 1900lbs. So clearly Hunter didn’t think it was going to break and my SS chain that I should have bought has a SWL .3500lbs about 80% more than how it as delivered.

Those that know me, would know I test as much as possible. So how do I really know the load on my anchor gear. Very hard for the average cruiser to test this. So in the early days I made up a snubber with a 5 ton breaking strength (not SWL) It wasn’t long after I made it, that I broke it. I was thinking WTF I have anchor chain at 1900lbs (about 1ton) SWL and just broke a snubber (in Syndey harbor I might add) that was rated at 5 ton breaking. After suggesting to Whitworths there rope wasn’t as rated I bought some more and had it tested at CSIRO along with a piece of my chain. The snubber rope in fact broke just under 5 ton in a slow test and my chain broke at just over 7 ton.. Then I was told that typical the safety factor on chain is at least 5:1 up to about 7 :1 and up to 12:1 on rope. So now I knew that in about 60knots of wind I could get 5 ton load on my chain. which was clearly more than the SWL of what I had but less than breaking.

So over the years cruisers went from BBB, to G30, G40,G70 increasing the SWL

How many of you have a SS shackle or SS swivel connecting your chain to you anchor. A Gal swivel would for sure wear off the Gal quite quick I would imagine and most of the swivels I have seen on cruisers boats are SS. How many of you know that your Gal shackle is also G40 and not BBB or G30. So when my ordinal 5/16 chain wore out I upped the size and decided to stick wiht my 5/16 Stainless shackle as a test and I added a 3/8 Stainless shackle in parallel so I could sleep at night. The idea being to prove how long and just how good SS was. 12 years later it was still there doing all the work and my backup 3/8 one was doing nothing

Those that don’t know suggest stainless steel is not good underwater as an anchor chain. That is in fact totally wrong. Stainless by nature gets its protection in part from being in and out of water (oxidization), like an anchor chain. Yep its no good as a mooring shackle always down there for sure, but its many times better as a material for going in and out of salt water.

So the anchor chain I broke was due to lack of knowledge on my part and because it was Galvanized chain. Had it been stainless, this would not have happened, and I was lucky. In essence due to my own lack of knowledge as my chain started to age I inspected it around the first 3 or 4m from the anchor and then again around 20m mark and again around 40m mark, all was good. Of course up around the 40m mark was nearly like new. Interestingly so to was the 3 &4m mark. What I did not realize at the time was the ware point is in my case is around 15M to 20M mark, ie the point where the chain is constantly being lifted up and down off the bottom at anchor. It wares in the corner of the links where they touch and it works. Of course because its working there it seldom show sign of rust because its working. But for example I have found an 8mm chain can easily become 6mm in the corner of the links at this ware point. Without close inspection parting each link to the first timer (ie me then) it can and was missed, so yep in 40knots the chain broke. This would not have happened with SS.

Moreover one of the so called benefit of a steel Gal chain is its said to not be so brittle you get warning signs etc. Well of course that’s not true either when you're talking HT steel like G40 etc.

SS chain will stack much better, it will not bunch up at the windlass. Those that have small anchor lockers will not need to be up the front pushing the chain around with a stick or having it jam.

If your always in a 1st world country the chances are pretty good you can flip your old Gal chain around and get it re galvanized. But I can assure you many that do this have all sorts of trouble and centrifugal galvanizers capable of doing 60+ meters of chain are not on every corner. Then getting your chain to and from them in a foreign country, yep doable for shore but a challenge with questionable quality.

You will not need to replace SS chain, it in fact loves being in and out of water.

Right now 4 chains later I'm only mildly better of financially. Once I replace this one, it will be about breakeven dollar wise. I could go on but this subject is a bit like Cat’s verse Mono’s or the old argument about Led Acid verse LifePo4. I think the tide is turning on that debate. SS chain perhaps has a bit further to go, and Cat Verse Mono' I expect will be around long after me. Happy cruising

So, as I'm really not into a debate, I'm simply going to point out a series of statements you've made above that don't make sense to me.

1) You haven't used stainless chain, so your assessments of wear and tear are not supported by real world observations. Sad, because I would love to hear real world assessments.

2) Your SWL numbers for the various chains - specifically the stainless chain is not how I understand those numbers to be. But I'm not going to sit here and go through all the required documentation. As I've said, I'm not really into a debate....

3) Your observation of the snubber breaking, while I'm sure is accurate, is not an apples to apples comparison. This has to do with the length of material over which the load was applied.

4) Austenitic stainless steels, 316 is an austenitic stainless steel, do not perform as well as you project above. If I was at home with my library, I would be able to pull out well documented engineering studies that support my statement. But I'm busy sailing and won't have time to do that for a number of months.

Your point on swivels and shackles is excellent. However, for your information, I personally do not use austenitic stainless steel for my shackles, I use stainless made from precipitation hardening alloys - for my swivel, I use one produced from a duplex stainless steel. Both of these alloys are indeed stainless steel, but both are rated for submersed application. I will freely admit, I am likely not a "typical" sailor in this aspect. And I completely agree with your point on this one.

dj

 

[American_Mainsail]

This sounds like a rather less than honest statement. Given the length to which you went through the rest of your statements, it seems to me you clearly were looking for, perhaps not a debate, but certainly a conversation.




So, as I'm really not into a debate, I'm simply going to point out a series of statements you've made above that don't make sense to me.

1) You haven't used stainless chain, so your assessments of wear and tear are not supported by real world observations. Sad, because I would love to hear real world assessments.

2) Your SWL numbers for the various chains - specifically the stainless chain is not how I understand those numbers to be. But I'm not going to sit here and go through all the required documentation. As I've said, I'm not really into a debate....

3) Your observation of the snubber breaking, while I'm sure is accurate, is not an apples to apples comparison. This has to do with the length of material over which the load was applied.

4) Austenitic stainless steels, 316 is an austenitic stainless steel, do not perform as well as you project above. If I was at home with my library, I would be able to pull out well documented engineering studies that support my statement. But I'm busy sailing and won't have time to do that for a number of months.

Your point on swivels and shackles is excellent. However, for your information, I personally do not use austenitic stainless steel for my shackles, I use stainless made from precipitation hardening alloys - for my swivel, I use one produced from a duplex stainless steel. Both of these alloys are indeed stainless steel, but both are rated for submersed application. I will freely admit, I am likely not a "typical" sailor in this aspect. And I completely agree with your point on this one.

dj

If you get around to pulling those references at some point, DJ, I’d love to hear about them. The corrosion mechanism for how 316 SS becomes brittle in saltwater is a mystery to me. I think there’s a lot of opinions that fly around about it, but I haven’t seen any solid info on it.

 

[dLj]

Thanks for sharing your first-hand experience with us, @Screen Saver. It’s conversations like this that make this such a great forum.

For the record, it would be really interesting to have some stainless anchor chain with some hours on pull tested to failure. I’ve seen documented cases of SS mooring chain becoming brittle, but I suspect that this has to do with twisting loads created stress cracks, or possibly low oxygen environments in sediment preventing the protective layer on the SS from forming. I think that anchor chain sees different loads than a mooring chain, and certainly isn’t submerged permanently like mooring chain is.

Great comment - No knowledgeable engineer should ever suggest using an austenitic stainless steel chain as a mooring chain. That alloy cannot sustain it's passive layer and will fail in short order, compared to other alloys, including hot dipped galvanized chain.

What I am really interested in is real world examples of using austenitic chain as an anchor chain where it is out of the water with frequency.

dj

 

[dLj]

If you get around to pulling those references at some point, DJ, I’d love to hear about them. The corrosion mechanism for how 316 SS becomes brittle in saltwater is a mystery to me. I think there’s a lot of opinions that fly around about it, but I haven’t seen any solid info on it.

It doesn't really become brittle, in the materials definition of that term. It corrodes and wears. There are several mechanisms that can take place, specifically in chain. The austenitic stainless steels (again, 316 is one of them) require an amount of oxygen to maintain their passive oxide layer that submersed in sea water conditions do not allow. At the contact points of chain, there is also an interaction between the two surfaces that are between the links of the oxide layer on both links that causes increased wear. Minor motion, think the chain working up and down, back and forth, as the chain is worked is a very damaging wear mechanism for these specific alloys (can also happen in other alloys, but the austenitic stainless alloys are accentuated in this aspect). So you get poor wear characteristics, plus a couple different kinds of corrosion mechanisms all taking place at the same time. The infamous "crevice corrosion" that is so talked about in the marine world is one of those corrosion mechanisms that is quite insidious and can produce what you may perceive as a "brittle" behavior.

dj

 

[Screen Saver]

This sounds like a rather less than honest statement. Given the length to which you went through the rest of your statements, it seems to me you clearly were looking for, perhaps not a debate, but certainly a conversation.




So, as I'm really not into a debate, I'm simply going to point out a series of statements you've made above that don't make sense to me.

1) You haven't used stainless chain, so your assessments of wear and tear are not supported by real world observations. Sad, because I would love to hear real world assessments.

2) Your SWL numbers for the various chains - specifically the stainless chain is not how I understand those numbers to be. But I'm not going to sit here and go through all the required documentation. As I've said, I'm not really into a debate....

3) Your observation of the snubber breaking, while I'm sure is accurate, is not an apples to apples comparison. This has to do with the length of material over which the load was applied.

4) Austenitic stainless steels, 316 is an austenitic stainless steel, do not perform as well as you project above. If I was at home with my library, I would be able to pull out well documented engineering studies that support my statement. But I'm busy sailing and won't have time to do that for a number of months.

Your point on swivels and shackles is excellent. However, for your information, I personally do not use austenitic stainless steel for my shackles, I use stainless made from precipitation hardening alloys - for my swivel, I use one produced from a duplex stainless steel. Both of these alloys are indeed stainless steel, but both are rated for submersed application. I will freely admit, I am likely not a "typical" sailor in this aspect. And I completely agree with your point on this one.

dj

The stainless debate wasn’t realy the initial posts question, so I was trying not to go to far off topic and perhaps hoped people would accept well this is just his view doesn’t make it right or wrong.
However in reference to your
(1) correct I haven’t had personal first hand real world experience with SS chain over time, but I have friends whom have gone this way whom I have cruised with and I am vaguely familiar with stainless characteristic (including the benefits of Duplex) in terms of strength ware and corrosion and I did do some break tests back years . But yes Im not an expert for sure.

Re (2) chain numbers yep Im sure you will find some variation; the numbers came from manufactures and google.

Re (3) we will perhaps agree to disagree. Break strength has nothing to do with length in my humble view. The length may help to reduce the snatch impact, but it does not change break strength.

Re (4) yep sailing is what we all should be doing, glad you are. I am in maintenance mode between windlass, fire extinguishers, Gyro’s and rigging. Unless someone has looked in some detail at stainless chain they probably are not aware of the many differences in Stainless chain. I also doubt most marine retailers would have a clue if their product is Austenitic or duplex. Interesting question I will ask next time .

 

[dLj]

The stainless debate wasn’t realy the initial posts question, so I was trying not to go to far off topic and perhaps hoped people would accept well this is just his view doesn’t make it right or wrong.

Hahaha - obviously that won't slide... I picked it up because I have a very strong interest in the topic.

It sounded like you had hands-on real world experience AND knew enough to enter into an intelligent conversation.... A not so common combination...

However in reference to your
(1) correct I haven’t had personal first hand real world experience with SS chain over time, but I have friends whom have gone this way whom I have cruised with and I am vaguely familiar with stainless characteristic (including the benefits of Duplex) in terms of strength ware and corrosion and I did do some break tests back years . But yes Im not an expert for sure.

Yeah, but that's one step too far away for me. I'm sure we can both agree that using stainless for moorings is not a good way to go. BUT, the reason there is such an active debate on stainless for anchor chain is because some people have had good results using it. As they say, the devil is in the details. How often do they anchor, where, for how long, all those things come into play.

There are too many things known about using stainless - austenitic stainless - in a chain application that I cannot make recommendations to use it. But I'm very interested in learning more, especially in real world application.

Re (2) chain numbers yep Im sure you will find some variation; the numbers came from manufactures and google.

In the world of metallurgy, google is NOT your friend... It is a huge problem!

Re (3) we will perhaps agree to disagree. Break strength has nothing to do with length in my humble view. The length may help to reduce the snatch impact, but it does not change break strength.

This is a complex subject better left for a different time/forum...

Re (4) yep sailing is what we all should be doing, glad you are. I am in maintenance mode between windlass, fire extinguishers, Gyro’s and rigging. Unless someone has looked in some detail at stainless chain they probably are not aware of the many differences in Stainless chain. I also doubt most marine retailers would have a clue if their product is Austenitic or duplex. Interesting question I will ask next time .

Actually, if you press them, most do know. If they don't know, I won't buy from them. This is in regards to shackles and such...

Regarding chain, as far as I'm aware, no one produces chain in either precipitation hardening alloys nor duplex alloys. In stainless chain, I'm only aware of 304 and 316 stainless being used on commercial chain manufacturing. If anyone knows differently, I'm VERY interested in hearing!

dj

 

[American_Mainsail]

It doesn't really become brittle, in the materials definition of that term. It corrodes and wears. There are several mechanisms that can take place, specifically in chain. The austenitic stainless steels (again, 316 is one of them) require an amount of oxygen to maintain their passive oxide layer that submersed in sea water conditions do not allow. At the contact points of chain, there is also an interaction between the two surfaces that are between the links of the oxide layer on both links that causes increased wear. Minor motion, think the chain working up and down, back and forth, as the chain is worked is a very damaging wear mechanism for these specific alloys (can also happen in other alloys, but the austenitic stainless alloys are accentuated in this aspect). So you get poor wear characteristics, plus a couple different kinds of corrosion mechanisms all taking place at the same time. The infamous "crevice corrosion" that is so talked about in the marine world is one of those corrosion mechanisms that is quite insidious and can produce what you may perceive as a "brittle" behavior.

dj

Right back at you, DJ. Great comment.

Thanks for breaking down the mechanisms of corrosion!

If you have any references to engineering books that sum up the issue, I'm all ears. I've been Googling the topic over the years and most of the studies I've come across were studies on austentic stainless mooring chains. They're helpful, but I generally prefer engineering books since they tend to sum up all of the available research and practical experience.