Will I be a Dutchman or not?

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Jul 15, 2012
23
Down Easter Downeast 45 Titusville
I am dithering about how to set up my new mainsail, which we need to handle with the minimum amount of deck work, both raising and lowering and reefing.
The mainmast is a conventional aluminum spar. The sail is 43’ luff and 16’ foot and will be new—after I decide how to have it made. Another consideration is the main boom passes over the bimini enclosure on our center cockpit schooner, so we have no chance of handling the sail over about ten feet of it’s length.
I have looked closely at the Facnor behind mast roller furling, and also an open behind mast furling, (similar to a jib furler). But I’m worried about possible issues, like jamming, sail set, weight aloft, not to mention cost and installation.
I am now thinking about a Dutchman system in conjunction with single or double line reefing. I have no experience of either and would like to hear from anyone who has.
Both systems do seem to be very simple and can be operated from the cockpit, where I will have an electric winch.
I like the idea of a properly cut sail having controlled battens and sliders on the boom. But how do you get a good reef in the sail, particularly on a second reef, if the vertical sliders prevent the clew from being pulled down level with the boom? Do you have to unhook the sliders from the mast, or have fewer sliders between reef points?
Also, is it practical or even necessary to build a lazy bag into the Dutchman furling, so the complete sail can stow into the bag?
 
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Jan 1, 2006
7,039
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I can only speak about the Dutchman. I had one on my Mark 25 and liked it very much. That boat had a tall main sail and handling it without the Dutchan would have been very difficult. With it, it was a snap. I don't recall any problem reefing which I did regularly - even double reefed. I think it's much cleaner than lazy jacks. I don't know if it can be set up with a Stack Pac or similar system. But the combination would make flaking and covering the main pretty easy.
I don't understand your concern regarding the battens, sliders and reefing.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,884
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
A friend has a Doyle Stack Pack on a center cockpit Beany Toe ..Works very well .. My experience is that lazy jacks like in the Doyle system are superior to the Dutchman system .. I have been on two boats that had jams in the grommets and Dutchman lines .. at inopportune times. Not endorsing Doyle particularly, just that it is the form of lazy jack system that I have experience with. No changes are required in the sail for lazy jack application.
 

kenn

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Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
...But how do you get a good reef in the sail, particularly on a second reef, if the vertical sliders prevent the clew from being pulled down level with the boom? Do you have to unhook the sliders from the mast, or have fewer sliders between reef points?
I think it's just a matter of allowing for the height of the stacked sliders when the reef tack grommets are placed and installed. We're talking 3 to 6 slugs max for the 2nd reef, right? Yes the sail would be bunched up a bit at the mast/boom joint but it would still be properly tensioned.
 

johey

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Jan 2, 2007
16
Beneteau 390 Baltimore
I have mixed results with the Dutchman system. I have two main sails with different reefs. One of them works great, no problems with jams, reefing, etc. On the other one, the sail maker put the holes for the control lines too far aft. The bulk of the sail falls off the boom, on the second reef the aft line is not doing anything. The holes were made by a licensed Dutchman installer... I wish I would have ignored the advice an done it myself!
 
Jun 25, 2012
942
hunter 356 Kemah,the Republic of Texas
I am dithering about how to set up my new mainsail, which we need to handle with the minimum amount of deck work, both raising and lowering and reefing.
The mainmast is a conventional aluminum spar. The sail is 43’ luff and 16’ foot and will be new—after I decide how to have it made. Another consideration is the main boom passes over the bimini enclosure on our center cockpit schooner, so we have no chance of handling the sail over about ten feet of it’s length.
I have looked closely at the Facnor behind mast roller furling, and also an open behind mast furling, (similar to a jib furler). But I’m worried about possible issues, like jamming, sail set, weight aloft, not to mention cost and installation.
I am now thinking about a Dutchman system in conjunction with single or double line reefing. I have no experience of either and would like to hear from anyone who has.
Both systems do seem to be very simple and can be operated from the cockpit, where I will have an electric winch.
I like the idea of a properly cut sail having controlled battens and sliders on the boom. But how do you get a good reef in the sail, particularly on a second reef, if the vertical sliders prevent the clew from being pulled down level with the boom? Do you have to unhook the sliders from the mast, or have fewer sliders between reef points?
Also, is it practical or even necessary to build a lazy bag into the Dutchman furling, so the complete sail can stow into the bag?
If not roller fullering then go a Full batten main with a lazy jack sail cover. Never weave any fishing line through your main sail. You should have no problems with a properly designed and installed Full Batten Main Sail when raising or lowering and when reefing sail from cockpit, Should not have to remove any carrs from mast for reefing. Make sure you do not skimp on the carrs the right designed and quality manufactured carrs are very important. A properly set up lazy jack sail sail cover should need little on no adjustment going up or coming down. One zipper operation at end of day to put sail to bed. Big plus full batten main will last a lot longer then a flogging main everytime you go to use it. Now you do need to be able to still induce a little bit of quick flog from time to help it come down on or up. This would normal.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,039
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Just for the record: I didn't use fishing line weaved through my sail I used weed wacker line!
 

capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
I'd go w/ the behind mast enclosed furler.
I have infinite reefing, the sail is protected from the sun when not in use & no sail covers, with my Hood in-mast furling.
Everyone I meet is afraid of in-mast furling, but I love it. It took some time to learn how to furl & unfurl w/o problems, but we've not had any trouble in 8 months of daily sailing in the Eastern Caribbean since learning what works best on this boat.
A lot of boats down here have the "stack pack" system, but as I said, w/ in mast (behind the mast) you can reef any amount & not have to be head to wind to furl or reef, a real plus.
My mizzen has behind the mast furling (like jib furling as you said) & it wiggles when furled, shaking the boat at anchor sometimes. I'm not comfortable tightening it too much on the hoist, as it will bend the mast more than I like, if I do, & it also sets with a bit of sag on the luff.
I know the behind the mast enclosed system is expensive compared to most alternatives, but I I would go that way; plus it will increase the value of the boat for resale.
 

DougM

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Jul 24, 2005
2,242
Beneteau 323 Manistee, MI
I Have lazy jacks and two single line reefs led back to the cockpit. The system works very well for me. As for in mast furlers, I am not at all sold. Every friend who has one has had problems, usually at a bad time with jams etc. Another disadvantage is less available sail area, and inability to get good sail shape.
 

capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Doug
Less sail area, I'll buy, but I seem to be reefed 90% of the time, so what have I lost? With the loose footed main I can get the sail drawing almost like a jib, to weather, baggy as on old shirt down wind & curved to cup the wind lovingly, on a reach. As in reefing, with a usable outhaul (dedicated & in cockpit) I also have infinite adjustment there as well. Lovely set!
Everybody has a horror story about the in-mast mains, but honestly, I just don't get it. Like I said, it took some time for the in-mast furler to train us, but it NEVER was fouled so much I couldn't clear it with some hand cranking (yes, there are times when I do not use the electrics) and in a few minutes. But the trade off is just NOT worth the hassle. Lazy jacks, reefing system, furling system, lack of access to boom over Bimini (especially on a center cockpit boat), sail covers, dealing with the halyard, fixed outhaul, etc.
This is NOT new technology, it's been around 30 years & it's used on many, many mega-sailing yachts, where a screw up can be extremely dangerous and costly. Like anything, you must learn to use it properly.
All that said, I've had jiffy reefing on many boats, & it worked just fine.
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,606
Frers 33 41426 Westport, CT
If your concern is because you cannot get to the boom when it's over the bimini, I would suggest looking at an in boom furler. Not prone to jaming and leaving the sail stuck out (drop like a regular main), you can still carry a full roach and battens, easy to furl, no sail cover to mess with.

start by looking here, http://www.forespar.com/leisurefurl/history.html
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
I Have lazy jacks and two single line reefs led back to the cockpit. The system works very well for me. As for in mast furlers, I am not at all sold. Every friend who has one has had problems, usually at a bad time with jams etc. Another disadvantage is less available sail area, and inability to get good sail shape.
This is a common rig to Beneteaus and it works well on our boat where the half the boom extends over the dodger/bimini. Run your battened main batten slugs on a poly track aft the mast and you can literally loosen the halyard and drop the sail into the stack pack. Hoisting is easy hand-over-hand effort. Feel no need for an electric winch, or furling main.

Had a dutchman system on a charter boat a few years ago. One of the grommets that the fishing lined threaded through the sail was missing. It destroyed the sail like one of those fancy cheese slicers.
 
Jul 15, 2012
23
Down Easter Downeast 45 Titusville
I thank everyone for their responses to date, and naturally everyone has their preferences.
My impressions so far are that the Dutchman is a good reasonably cheap system, but like anything nautical it will need attention from time to time. One thing worries me: on their website they mention the sail should be luffing before attempting to lower it. If this is correct it’s a no-no for us, since we need a system which does not necessitate rounding up, even partially, into some ocean swells we have been in. I would have thought it would be easier to reduce sail on a Dutchman system with the sail full, even if it means clawing it down to the first reef by hand. Don't the control lines keep the sail off the shrouds and spreaders, just like tight lazy jacks? Could someone with a Dutchman confirm or refute this please?
The other thing about the Dutchman is that the sail should set better than any in-mast furling sail, which must be cut flat.
I’m pretty certain I would install double line reefing if I don’t buy a roller system. Nobody has said anything suspect about that method.
I have also looked at in-boom, but had to reject it simply on grounds of cost.
The Facnor enclosed behind-mast system seems the best of the retrofit roller furling methods, but this also is pretty expensive when you include a new sail.
 
Jun 25, 2012
942
hunter 356 Kemah,the Republic of Texas
I thank everyone for their responses to date, and naturally everyone has their preferences.
My impressions so far are that the Dutchman is a good reasonably cheap system, but like anything nautical it will need attention from time to time. One thing worries me: on their website they mention the sail should be luffing before attempting to lower it. If this is correct it’s a no-no for us, since we need a system which does not necessitate rounding up, even partially, into some ocean swells we have been in. I would have thought it would be easier to reduce sail on a Dutchman system with the sail full, even if it means clawing it down to the first reef by hand. Don't the control lines keep the sail off the shrouds and spreaders, just like tight lazy jacks? Could someone with a Dutchman confirm or refute this please?
The other thing about the Dutchman is that the sail should set better than any in-mast furling sail, which must be cut flat.
I’m pretty certain I would install double line reefing if I don’t buy a roller system. Nobody has said anything suspect about that method.
I have also looked at in-boom, but had to reject it simply on grounds of cost.
The Facnor enclosed behind-mast system seems the best of the retrofit roller furling methods, but this also is pretty expensive when you include a new sail.
The boat I now sail came with an in-mast fulling system. Works great. Last boat did the full batten and lazy jack sail cover system and it worked great for my mac 26 at the time. If I had to choose between the two I would go in mast roller furling. Now in my previous post I forgot to mention a roller furlering boom option. FYI...Since cost of the new boom may be an issue ....I have seen and can not remember were but you go with an after market roller fulling system for an existing boom retrofit. It would mount to top of existing boom. This way you could have a full batten main and have infinite reef points. And all handled from the cockpit.
 
Feb 10, 2004
3,917
Hunter 40.5 Warwick, RI
I thank everyone for their responses to date, and naturally everyone has their preferences.
My impressions so far are that the Dutchman is a good reasonably cheap system, but like anything nautical it will need attention from time to time. One thing worries me: on their website they mention the sail should be luffing before attempting to lower it. If this is correct it’s a no-no for us, since we need a system which does not necessitate rounding up, even partially, into some ocean swells we have been in. I would have thought it would be easier to reduce sail on a Dutchman system with the sail full, even if it means clawing it down to the first reef by hand. Don't the control lines keep the sail off the shrouds and spreaders, just like tight lazy jacks? Could someone with a Dutchman confirm or refute this please?
The other thing about the Dutchman is that the sail should set better than any in-mast furling sail, which must be cut flat.
I’m pretty certain I would install double line reefing if I don’t buy a roller system. Nobody has said anything suspect about that method.
I have also looked at in-boom, but had to reject it simply on grounds of cost.
The Facnor enclosed behind-mast system seems the best of the retrofit roller furling methods, but this also is pretty expensive when you include a new sail.
I have a Dutchman on my h40.5. Yes you do need to luff the sail in order for it to drop. But I think this is true for any mainsail- at least if you don't want a real struggle. It is not that the control lines don't keep the sail off the spreaders and shrouds, the problem is that the sail binds in the track, especially if you have a full battened sail. The main problem that I have experienced is that getting the adjustment of the control lines is difficult to do. At least I have a problem with it. If the lines aren't adjusted just right, the sail doesn't flake like it should and bunches up on one side of the boom.

All in all, the Dutchman is probably as good as anything else, but if I were to install this system, I would get someone who knows how to adjust it do the installing.
 

Blitz

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Jul 10, 2007
672
Seidelmann 34 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
I don't personally see an advantage of a Dutchman over a stackpack/lazy jack/ fully batten main. The Stackpack can be reefed on a closed reach baby simply easing the boom, lowering and pulling in three reefing lines. At least that works for me. My main is on a track that allows it to fall quickly into the cover with no need to wrap or zip it shut until back at dock. I solo sail often and life has been much easier with Stackpack type system. Mine is by Doyle but others are out there.

I only need really to get to each end of boom tho secure it at dock or while coming in. Some even set up zipper back tho cockpit...

Suggest really to try them out. I only steered away from Dutchman since s Pearson at my dock always had problems and a roller boom as closer to triple costs.

Good luck
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
You may want to check out the Mack Pack. It is about 1/2 the cost of the other "Pack" systems from the major sail makers. Most of them charge around $100/ft of boom length. The Mack Pack is around $800.

We have had a dutchman and find that it was a superior system to most of the "Jack" systems. If you decide that a "Jack System" is the way to go I would suggest that you make the retractable. The battens typically get hung up in the "Jack lines" if they cannot be retracted.
 
Nov 18, 2010
2,441
Catalina 310 Hingham, MA
My $0.02.

I have a Dutchman, once adjusted, the only thing I would want instead is a in boom furler. It flakes well with little attention. Getting it adjusted takes about a hour on a mooring with the sail up and playing around with the various lines. Usually have to do that once a season.

We have single line reefing, a shallow and a deep. To put in the shallow reef, we let out the main sheet until the sail is luffing, loose the halyard and pull in the reefing line. About a 2 minute operation, all completed from the cockpit. The deep reef is similar but usually takes a little more time.

One negative to the Stak Pak that I have heard is that they a noisy under sail because they tend to flap. Don't know a bout that first hand yet. A friend just installed one so I should be able to find out soon.

Good luck.
 

Blitz

.
Jul 10, 2007
672
Seidelmann 34 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
JK_Boston_Catalina310 said:
One negative to the Stak Pak that I have heard is that they a noisy under sail because they tend to flap. Don't know a bout that first hand.
I haven't experienced any noise from flapping; not sure if you mean from the lazy jacks on the mast or the pack itself. I've had neither but the lazy jack lines up the side of the mast could make noise if not using a cord (bungee) to keep it off.
 
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