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Why does Hunter have a bad name?

Jun 8, 2004
8,856
-na -NA Anywhere USA
@Michael-Louis

@BobbyFunn is speaking about an ACP or plastic boat that was made. I was not a fan as a dealer of that construction as I highly recommended fiberglass construction. I was out ruled on that one. Whenever the manufacturer of ACP material changed formulation without the knowledge of Hunter is what was the leading cause for many issues. Many though were not affected but sadly bobbyfun has one of them. Than many owners screwed into plastic with screws without realizing you cannot do that. Even long after boats were out of warranty, Hunter was still honoring repairs and at times replacing the boats. Years after the production of ACP built boats ceased, Hunter stopped covering repairs as warranty had ceased years before. Hunter Marine is long gone and when David Marlow purchased Hunter through bankruptcy, Marlow-Hunter did not purchase any liabilities. So I can understand the frustration of bobbyfun. As for mast rake it varies on the boat to include daysailors

That said maybe you were too critical. I was a full line dealer stocking dealer of every boat built and very much involved with Hunter over all other Hunter dealers
 
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Sep 25, 2008
6,238
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
@Michael-Louis

@BobbyFunn is speaking about an ACP or plastic boat that was made. I was not a fan as a dealer of that construction as I highly recommended fiberglass construction. I was out ruled on that one. Whenever the manufacturer of ACP material changed formulation without the knowledge of Hunter is what was the leading cause for many issues. Many though were not affected but sadly bobbyfun has one of them. Than many owners screwed into plastic with screws without realizing you cannot do that. Even long after boats were out of warranty, Hunter was still honoring repairs and at times replacing the boats. Years after the production of ACP built boats ceased, Hunter stopped covering repairs as warranty had ceased years before. Hunter Marine is long gone and when David Marlow purchased Hunter through bankruptcy, Marlow-Hunter did not purchase any liabilities. So I can understand the frustration of bobbyfun. As for mast rake it varies on the boat to include daysailors

That said maybe you were too critical. I was a full line dealer stocking dealer of every boat built and very much involved with Hunter over all other Hunter dealers
That’s what happens when some people make generalities which are never correct especially based on an atypical example and should therefore be dismissed as uninformed.
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
You project urself as an expert sailor but u may over estimate urself. Othervise u would know that your controll problems are not HUnter's problem but generated by u not understanding what is "mast rake" and your boat is obviously out of tune. You also either bought her from someone did not care about her or urself let her down. Mine is a 1992 legend 35.5 and does not show what you complain about. I can reef the main in 30 seconds and she is capable to reach 8 kts. See the picture attached: at AWS 8 knots she is making 6 kts.Talk to experts in your marina, get your boat tuned by a real expert and read books.
Thats fantastic you are able to sail 8kts with your boat. it would up my game to post a speed indicator on my mast versus studying the GPS data later in the day. I can get the 170 to plane when the wind is over 10 kts and if the rudder is humming i know im over 7kt. I do need to find others to sail with. I sailed with the instructor at my club once when they wanted to demo the 170 and got good tips for tiller and mainsheet handling and dock approaches with jib and main up.

My experience in sailing is with ownership of a 2004 Hunter 170, RC Sailing, and sunfishes. Im no expert and lack keel boat XP, but do have lots if cause and effect study of small boat design, enough to call out the myths and bad examples in most sailingbooks.

The 170 i sail has the following controls.
Tiller, mainsheet (midboom deck mounted), outhaul, vang, halyard, jibsheet, and topping lift. Centerboad is raised when main is reefed.

No traveler, no jib sheet tracks, no spinnaker or bowsprite, no backstay, no cunningham, no furler for reefed jib, no turnbuckles, no canting keel, no wieghted keel, no keel, no trapeze, no hiking strap or hiking bar. No place to store anything, no head, no sette, no corian countertops, no teak, no pushbutton winches....

Theres no opportunity to tune this thing either brother, other than to buy new Norths Sails...

No one is going to help tune my boat since there is no reference standard published by Hunter that gives any indication of what good sailing is for the 170. Its a running joke about the shrouds of the 170 in the promotional material. The boat is designed for people that think the boat looks like a big charter and it wont clobber them in a gybe. The target market expects to raise the sail and lower the sail without dying. The boat is not raced so there is almost no online community. It cant be camped so even local trailer squadrons are hard to hang out with. It doesnt fit in this world and really, they should be destroyed. I was that target market.

Now i am the target market that is frustrated with no jib sheet tracks and no asymetrical sail, no traveler, no boom kicker or topping lift flicker or hiking straps. The part that makes me mad is the boat is not designed to be "upgraded". I have to sell it to grow. I really like the "form factor" and it does look somewhat sexy. When i walk around the mast up lot, i see boats like the american 18, precision 185, rs venture, hobie getaway, wetas, vx's, and they check off many requirements while also having clear construction advantages. Things like fiberglass contruction, storage, hiking straps, Asymetrical spinnakers, deck mounted masts that are less than 20 feet, low centers of gravity, list goes on. Really simple stuff that should've be designed as part of the 146, and 170 and 18.

Hunter sells on value. Those business have to die, be rebranded, and reborn, since there is no real loyalty. The companies that create a value product soon find competitors that can cut corners quicker than they can. Its stupid for westernized society to make value products since the labor force is too educated, too expensive, cant be dominated and generally has more legal problems. As soon as a value competitor has a few improvements it immediatly depricates the dated and uninspired original product. Value companies start to skimp on IT, R&D, next followed by marketing, then infrastrucure. Soon all thats left is local workers trying to buy time while they find a new gig with health benefits. Now even the labor force could care less.

Hop over the the West Marine thread. They dont give a fk about value. The day tbey do they are as dead as Sears. They are a brand that sells high on purpose. They are selling on the side of tbe profit curve where volume is less, invetory can be less, tbe risk of product outages is almost nill, the stores are clean, the customers easily managed with fewer staff. If they sold on the other side of the price curve they would have to keep more inventory, incur higher traffic counts and basically, move stuff from one place to another and out the door for the same profit as selling less stuff. The product would be less about status and more utility. They actively stock redicously overpriced luxery items. A value brand has no loyalty or status, generic, and usually has just enough cost cutting changes to make the quality slightly noticable.
 
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May 8, 2017
43
Hunter Legend 35.5 Lake Balaton
You have a nice dinghy with 10 sqm sails and weight of about 200 kg and obviously easily planes under the right conditions. The 35.5 is 6000 kg and has 60 sqm sail area, thus six x more sail area an 30 x more weight. So much about planing or not planing. Actually there is one H170 for sale under USD 5000 in Minnesota or somewhere. Main sheet traveller would be ridiculous for a dinghy and you are the backstay when holding the main in your hand. But a jib sheet traveller, bowsprit, jib furler and cunningham can be easy to install yourself if you spend some money. Myself personally would not do it on the dinghy but up to you. I would rather save some money, buy a little used sailboat over 20 ft in good condition which has all these or I would install them on her. But even than forget about ocean crossing and the likes.
Long time ago I used to have a SHOLCZ 22 OD, a Hungarian made fibreglas sailboat. It was easy to bring it to plane. However. her weight was 750 kg, sail area was 30 + 50 sqm genakker. Now she was a sailboat. They still make it and costs about USD10 000 new. See it as attached.
Finally, I would be very cautious making generalized judgement of anything,
 

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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
You have a nice dinghy with 10 sqm sails and weight of about 200 kg and obviously easily planes under the right conditions. The 35.5 is 6000 kg and has 60 sqm sail area, thus six x more sail area an 30 x more weight. So much about planing or not planing. Actually there is one H170 for sale under USD 5000 in Minnesota or somewhere. Main sheet traveller would be ridiculous for a dinghy and you are the backstay when holding the main in your hand. But a jib sheet traveller, bowsprit, jib furler and cunningham can be easy to install yourself if you spend some money. Myself personally would not do it on the dinghy but up to you. I would rather save some money, buy a little used sailboat over 20 ft in good condition which has all these or I would install them on her. But even than forget about ocean crossing and the likes.
Long time ago I used to have a SHOLCZ 22 OD, a Hungarian made fibreglas sailboat. It was easy to bring it to plane. However. her weight was 750 kg, sail area was 30 + 50 sqm genakker. Now she was a sailboat. They still make it and costs about USD10 000 new. See it as attached.
Finally, I would be very cautious making generalized judgement of anything,
Mastery of knowledge starts and art begins with generalization, comedy. The human mind almost cant function except to generalize.

I code computers to be very specific, but a good data model starts with the general.

Your approach to sailing seems casual. Thats cool. Using the mainsheet as backstay is substandard sailing. what you suggest means there has to be huge tension mid boom, transmitted on the clew, which transmits back to the mast along the leech. You are suggesting i use my foil to bend the mast? I treat my sails like delicate flowers designed to curve nature itself into power. Ill leave mast bending to structures designed to bend metal. This subject has been beat down several times in other threads. You should check them out. The lower mainsheet swival should be on the same plane as the boom for the full range of boom travel for the conditions. This is not really possible except for rear boom travelers and mainsheet swivals located on elevated bars. The easiest construction method the counter this design weakness is to place the lower swival on a track that follows the boom inward and outward. A fixed, deck mounted mid boom mainsheet swival is retarded. Trust me, youll see me sitting on the rail with my hand pulling the upper swivel towards me while crushing it upwind. Whether a boat is 1 meter or 21.5, the boom still works the same so no, all boats with mainsheet swivals that are lower than the boom, need a traveler. Its bad technique to constantly modify foil shape with angle of attack manuvers.

I could upgrade the boat, but then its not a good boat for the noob ill be selling it too. Plus i am not great at knowing the engineering aspects of construction. Small changes, fixes to maintain value, thats about it.
 
Feb 10, 2017
281
Hunter 41 Progreso
I was speaking to the Selden sales rep at the recent Annapolis sailboat show as I wondered why the Selden Rodkicker rigid vang on my H33 didn't have an internal gas spring. It explained why it was basically useless for keeping the boom up. The Selden guy told me the gas springs were not installed at Hunter's request. Seems this was a cost-cutting measure and now I am about to spend a couple of hundred bucks to remediate it.

While I have been extremely happy with my Hunter sailboat, it's annoying to find out the factory opted out of an important part of the rigging just to save a few bucks. It's not like they were giving these boats away when they were new, and I'm sure it also impacts resale values.
A VANG IS DESIGNED TO KEEP THE BOOM DOWN, NOT UP, FOR THAT YOU HAVE A HYLIARD FOR THE BOOM, HAS A NAME BUT I CANNOT REMEMBER IT. DO NOT WAST YOUR MONEY
 
Dec 28, 2015
1,328
Laser, Hunter H30 Cherubini Tacoma
A VANG IS DESIGNED TO KEEP THE BOOM DOWN, NOT UP, FOR THAT YOU HAVE A HYLIARD FOR THE BOOM, HAS A NAME BUT I CANNOT REMEMBER IT. DO NOT WAST YOUR MONEY
A rigid vang is designed to do both.
 
Jun 8, 2004
8,856
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Not sure what a Gnav. A better description would be appreciated.
I read some responses which could be considered testy. This is for helping fellow sailors to help answer questions. When sailors realize each class of boats are different for example racer vs pleasure and day sailors vs larger boats then there is no need to become testy
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
The boom generally, moves in a range that if mapped out for all solutions, would be a cone. A simple mainsheet allows the boom to go anywhere in the range. A vang allows the boom to also go anywhere in that range of the cone. A topping lift same thing. The sail places a limit on the downward location of the boom.

As more controls are added the range of motion is reduced. Ive noticed that that boom movement up or down should only be used for sail shape. Boom movement inboard outboard is angle of attack. My personal sailing goals are to only change sail shape to reflect the average apparent wind speed, and change AOA to determine the throttle.

To keep the boom at a fixed height to maintain a fixed foil shape for all angles of attack there should ideally be a fixed structural member holding the boom in place. The rigid vang goes under the boom, a newer design, GNAV (vang spelled backwards) goes above the boom.

Without these fixed structures the boom will want to traverse the cone. The sail can hold the boom up, but, then the leech is supporting the boom and is not available for twist. The topping lift can replace the leech, but with most sail roaches, the battens will get hung up. It does on mine, except when reefed. Sometimes the sail will bellow up and pull the boom up. The vang is used to control that. So for every windspeed there is a combination of topping lift and vang required to keep the boom at one plane of the cone to maintain a fixed foil shape.

The mainsheet is providing AOA control only when the topping lift and vang are in use. When the boom is close to the centerline it still is undermined by the downward pull, but the topping lift maintains the shape.

If you have a traveller, then the topping lift can go away. The mainsheet is controlling the booms upward direction and the traveler is controlling the inboard outboard AOA. As the boom goes way outboard the vang has to be used since the traveller is out of range and the mainsheet is undermined by a bad angle horizontalvs downward.

A rigid vang or GNAV replaces 2 controls with 1 and provides a repeatable and consitant sailing experience.
 
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Likes: Valerio
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
The topping lift can replace the leech, but with most sail roaches, the battens will get hung up. It does on mine, except when reefed. Sometimes the sail will bellow up and pull the boom up. The vang is used to control that. So for every windspeed there is a combination of topping lift and vang required to keep the boom at one plane of the cone to maintain a fixed foil shape.
I do agree that the vang pulls the boom down to prevent the sail from “billowing up” and twisting too much when the the mainsheet is eased to permit the boom to swing out widely past the centerline of the boat.

But, with respect, I disagree with the rest of that paragraph..

First, Most boats don’t have a problem with battens hanging up on the topping lift. You may have that problem, with your boat, but it’s either operator error or your topping line ft is weirdly installed. Topping lifts have been around for eons, and generally don’t cause batten problems.

(I sell sails professionally, so I have thousands of customers who don’t have not reported that battens getting caught on the topping lift is a problem.

Secondly, IMO, The best use for a topping lift is to keep the boom up when raising or lowering sail. Once the sail is raised, I loosen the topping lift so that it is not tight enough to pull up on the boom and push on the sail. I leave it loose until it’s time to drop the mainsail.

I don’t ever recommend using the topping lift to hold the boom up to induce twist, because that invariably causes a huge dent,/crease in the sail which disrupts airflow. Putting tension on the topping lift by tightening the vang will make this even worse.

In summary, the topping lift should always be loose enough under way so that it doesn’t push against the sail and change the shape.

Judy
 
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Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Whether a boat is 1 meter or 21.5, the boom still works the same so no, all boats with mainsheet swivals that are lower than the boom, need a traveler.
Many tens of thousands of dinghy sailors might take exception to that generalization.
For example:
Laser
Capri 14.2 and 16
Precision 15, 16 (and 18?)
And more....
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
I do agree that the vang pulls the boom down to prevent the sail from twisting too much when the the mainsheet is eased to permit the boom to swing out widely past the centerline of the boat.

But, with respect, I disagree with the rest of that paragraph..

First, Most boats don’t have a problem with battens hanging up on the topping lift. You may have that problem, with your boat, but it’s either operator error or your topping line ft is weirdly installed. Topping lifts have been around for eons, and generally don’t cause batten problems.

(I sell sails professionally, so I have thousands of customers who don’t have not reported that battens getting caught on the topping lift is a problem.

Secondly, IMO, The best use for a topping lift is to keep the boom up when raising or lowering sail. Once the sail is raised, I loosen the topping lift so that it is not tight enough to pull up on the boom and push on the sail. I leave it loose until it’s time to drop the mainsail.

I don’t ever recommend using the topping lift to hold the boom up to induce twist, because that invariably causes a huge dent,/crease in the sail which disrupts airflow. Putting tension on the topping lift by tightening the vang will make this even worse.

In summary, the topping lift should always be loose enough under way so that it doesn’t push against the sail and change the shape.

Judy
I respect your sail knowledge as almost godlike, however, in practice on my boat on lazy days the topping lift is flopping around and the mainsail leech is undisciplined. With a tight topping lift the top batten cant bend enough to go through the tack. When the wind is higher i can reef. Then the entire leech fits within the topping lift. By this time its getting fun, but iften the top telltale is not lined up along the leech. I need twist, but the mainsheet ruins the twist. To maintain a steady foil i start using the topping lift to raise the boom, then tighten tbe vang. This locks in the boom hight allowing me work the angle and puffs while wuickly reastablishing good trim quivkly. Its much more respondive than giving up sail shape with small mainsheet changes. Its also easier on the mainsheet and the rig. The boom is safe. Held snug by two lines.
 
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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Many tens of thousands of dinghy sailors might take exception to that generalization.
For example:
Laser
Capri 14.2 and 16
Precision 15, 16 (and 18?)
And more....
by traveler i include the stern mounted "bridle". That raises the connection point of the boom to the mainsheet so that the pulling force of the line is closer to the planeof the boom.

You suggested Capri 14.2 sailers enjoy their sailing experience. Lets bring the topic back down to show why they do and how my hunter 170 hunter let the sailor down.
IMG_20191115_123128.jpg

Ive drawn a dotten green line to show the mainsheet for the 170 with its fixed deck mounted lower mainsheet purchase. Note the force on tbe boom is down with almost perpendicular force to the deck.

The better designed capri has end boom sheeting with a bridle midway up. The mainsheet us pulling the boom less torwards the deck and has more power inboard and outboard.
 
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Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
With a tight topping lift the top batten cant bend enough to go through the tack.
I don’t understand “go through the tack”.

Do you mean the topping lift prevents the batten from reversing the curve from one side to the other side (in light wind)? That happens with or without a transom bridle or a traveler.

Or do you mean something else?

That raises the connection point of the boom to the mainsheet so that the pulling force of the line is closer to the planeof the boom.
I don’t understand this either. The boom is a lot like a line,. It doesn’t define a plane.

Judy
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Good questions for those that might not see the detail, Judy.

A boom is a line that fits within a cone. The cone point is the gooseneck. If all one does is connect the boom to a gooseneck the boom is free to go up down left right in any location radiating out from the gooseneck.

Clip on a topping lift. The boom is limited to the top half a cone. The lower limit of movement is a flat semi-circle plane. This bottom plane is the expected range of motion for AOA manuvers. If a sail leech is used as a topping lift, then the wind loads the sail, pulling the boom into the upper cone and off the AOA plane.

Vang on...the upper half of the cone is gone. The boom is fixed in one semi-circle plane. Free to swing inboard and out.

Sometimes its nice to have a slackened leech. This requires loosening the vang, tightening the topping lift, then tighteng the vang again. This sets the boom on a new plane.

Heres a 170 with full main.
IMG_20191115_151549.jpg

Note the green dotted line is the loose topping lift. The red line is a tight topping lift. There is a removable top batten that protrudes beyond the roach and the topping lift. This is a pretty common issue with many boats. Some boats have a mast crane that moves this out, other have flicker rod to overcome this.