Who is liable?

[Sail R]

Ahoy Mates. I am hopefull that I can get a question answered on the subject of insurance liability.

Last week I was visiting my boat in MDR an I noticed my reciprocating fan was slowing down then speeding up. I unplugged it and assumed it was going out on me.

A few minutes later I noticed my cordless phones base unit Led's had went out. I happened to have my Fluke meter out for another project so I checked the AC wall outlet to see If I had lost shore power as happens with some frequency in this Marina due to DWP electrical issues

When I checked the outlet voltage I was shocked to see it was 220 VAC. I thought the meter was bad. I turned of the AC on my panel then I went outside and checked the outlets on the dock itself.

I observed a voltage swing from 45 VAC to 240 VAC. There were other owners on the dock doing similar things as I was to see what was going on with the docks power.

Long story short, I lost my boats charger, my cordless phone, a router, a small old school TV.

All in all 3 boats suffered blown up chargers. There were two microwave ovens blown as well. This is the damage I am aware of. There may be more as I have not spoken with all affected owners.

One of the dock mates called the Dockmaster and reported the issue. A worker showed up only after he finished lunch well over an hour later. After some time he resolved the wiring issue that caused the spike and left.

The Dock Master office made no attempt to warn absent boat owners of what happened.

This happened on the Wednesday, I could'nt get back down until Friday. I called the Dockmasters office at that time. I later found out that other tenants had already contacted her before me.

I asked if she was aware of the spike on our dock and she said yes and she somewhat proudly told me they had fixed it immediately as that "was their responsibilty".

I told her that was not true as her worker had taken nearly and hour and a half to respond and why hadn't they made any attempt warn owners by phone or post notices on the dock to not turn anything on and to check their boats? Crickets.

I asked about my losses and she insists that is between me and my insurance company. I have $700+ in losses and a $1000.00 deductable.

I was incredulous, I asked her what about if it happens again in a month?

I told her of my blown charger and my dockmates blown chargers and I asked what would happen if an unattended boat perhaps with a leaking packing gland had lost a charger without the owner being aware then over time sank due to dead batteries? I asked who who'd be responsible for that and why a day and a half later they still had not notified anyone of the incident.

People started receiving calls notifying them of the incident only after my call.

Is this woman right or simply avoiding responsibilty????
Thanks in advance for any advice that might be forthcoming.

All the best, Joe

 

[RichH]

This is THEIR liability not yours. Contact *your* insurance company.

Dont make 'any' settlements with the marina or their insurance company, deal ONLY with YOUR insurance company. The marina's insurance should cover all ... and with no 'deductible' involved for you.

 

[Joe]

It's just like getting in a car accident.... you exchange insurance info and write down everything you can remember about the event as soon as possible, while you're still fresh. You notify your insurance agent, giving them a report of the incident, including witnesses (your dockmates, marina manager, repair guy, etc.) and a list of damages.

Let them do the work.... when you purchase insurance you also hire that agency to represent when you have a claim against another company. (the marina's)

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

There is no way anyone here can state definitively where the liability lies. It depends, among other things, on any contractual agreement you have with your marina or dockmaster, any verbal understandings, any posted warnings, etc.. and obviously none of us know how your what liability provisions exist or preclude in your insurance. All you could hope to get here are well-intended but probably poor opinions.

Notify your insurance underwriter as they will subrogate the liability.

 

[Benny17441]

Read your contract with the Marina. It may have some hold harmless clauses regarding such incidents. These clauses do not mean they can escape liability if it can be proven they were negligent in responding to a reported problem. Contact your insurance company and probe their willingness to pursue a claim on your behalf. They may take the position that if they have no loss they are unwilling to litigate. Perhaps if you can gather a list of other tenants that may have the same insurance company and all made a claim that might help. You may also as a group contact the Marina's insurance company and make a claim directly. Don't go probing, just make a list of the damages and to what boat and the dollar losses involved and send them a registered letter signed by the involved tenants. If they refuse settlement then your last resort would be to contact an attorney to represent the group and negotiate a settlement before filing suit if need be. Keep it civil with the Marina personnel and let the attorneys and the insurers work this out, that is unless you are going to be looking for another Marina soon.

 

[Bill Roosa]

She is correct; it is between you and your insurance company. They will immediately contact the marina owner and get it settled.

 

[PrincessoftheLake]

I had an incident about 7 years ago where a problem with shore power blew my charger too. I told the marina manager and he had a new charger installed on my boat within a week. Great service and that is why I love Pikes Bay Marina.

 

[Jackdaw]

I had an incident about 7 years ago where a problem with shore power blew my charger too. I told the marina manager and he had a new charger installed on my boat within a week. Great service and that is why I love Pikes Bay Marina.

It's not called the best marina on lake superior without reason!

Let your insurance deal with it. Don't let it get personal. It's your (and your boats) home.

 

[RobertLangdirect]

MY OPINION would not add much but please, PROVIDE US WITH MORE INFORMATION.

You said, "A worker showed up . . ." This is a Marina Employee or a hired electrician? Please let us know who.

What Marina was this?

"After some time he resolved the wiring issue that caused the spike and left." OK. I assume that fixing anythin will take some time. So what?

What was the issue that he solved? PLEASE TELL US. I am really pressed to think of any way you can wire a marina to have flux from 45 to 240 VAC.

 

[Donnybrook]

"What was the issue that he solved? PLEASE TELL US. I am really pressed to think of any way you can wire a marina to have flux from 45 to 240 VAC."[/B]

Easy. It's not the marina, it's a fellow boater that needs a 50A 125/250V receptacle for his boat. Couldn't find one, so he plugs in two 30A cords on two different circuits, which gives him 250V. As soon as his 250V water heater or electric range is turned on, then everyone on those 2 legs gets 250V. At my marina, we can only have two 30A cords if the dockmaster is convinced that you have only 125V requirements, not 250V.

 

[KD3PC]

"What was the issue that he solved? PLEASE TELL US. I am really pressed to think of any way you can wire a marina to have flux from 45 to 240 VAC."[/b]

Easy. It's not the marina, it's a fellow boater that needs a 50A 125/250V receptacle for his boat. Couldn't find one, so he plugs in two 30A cords on two different circuits, which gives him 250V. As soon as his 250V water heater or electric range is turned on, then everyone on those 2 legs gets 250V. At my marina, we can only have two 30A cords if the dockmaster is convinced that you have only 125V requirements, not 250V.

How? Is turning on anything going to backfeed 250 volts anywhere. You may want to do some reading on phase and electrical theory.

 

[Bill Roosa]

I'm pretty sure he is not making it up KD3PC
and a floating neutral can cause all kinds of odd things to happen.

 

[RobertLangdirect]

DonnyBrook, Bill Roosa and KD3PC -- PLEASE -- let us not fight each other over this. I really want to have SAILR come back to explain.

But, BTW, I do not think that tapping a second phase turns everything else into 240V. If I remember right, the common split phase transformer we use for a house take a single phase and places one of two wires, now 180 degrees out of cycle, so that on one bus it has 120V and the other 120V, but when you put them together, you show 240V.

Now, in a house, if you want 240V, such as for a cloth dryer or oven, you take a phase from one bus in the panel, and a phase from the other bus in your panel, and you get 240V. But only to that cord. NOTHING ELSE attached will be 240V and EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE HOUSE IS ATTACHED, BTW on one phase or the other.

So, I do not think it is plausible to have another boater cross-phase the electricity for everyone else.

I think I will wait for SAILR to come back, if he is not in fact already with rod and reel in hand, outriggers ready, you know what I mean?

 

[kloudie1]

Sounds like an un-intentional bad connection between neutral and the other phase of the 120.. ?? measuring between the prongs of the outlet would let ya see 240 Then as the connection went bad/heated.. open or a much lower voltage.. probably at an incoming breaker box that belongs to the marina. ?? I dunno..

 

[tommays]

With the household stuff i have seen onboard right down to BX for cable runs anything could happen

I am sure there are at least two circuts passing through every dock box connection and something as simple as a careless wirenut job fallen off could do it

 

[kenn]

I'm willing to bet that the problem was a floating neutral, either at or close to the main breakers for that dock. when that happens, the neutral is no longer staked to 0 vac but is free to float around.

(image is from about the middle of this webpage.)

This changes two normal 120vac branches, into two branches in series across 240vac, and the neutral is the 'mid-point'. If one branch has a much greater load ( = smaller resistance) than the other, the voltage on the less-loaded branch( = higher resistance) will then shoot up towards 240v.

It's not the marina, it's a fellow boater that needs a 50A 125/250V receptacle for his boat. Couldn't find one, so he plugs in two 30A cords on two different circuits, which gives him 250V. As soon as his 250V water heater or electric range is turned on, then everyone on those 2 legs gets 250V. .

Sorry, this wouldn't happen, if the dock wiring is all OK. The reason is that 240vac loads are connected across both hots, and never to the neutral, thus has no influence on the neutral.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Sadly you have a high deductible for damage that occured on your boat. If you feel that you have a claim, you will have to prove laibiltiy rests with the marina. I doubt that empoyee will testify against his employer. However, you can file a claim with the marina and they in turn should turn this over to the adjuster for further investigation. Someitmes marinas will not do this. Then your only remedy is thru small claims court where you can handle the claim but you better know what is going on; otherwise, hire an attorney and if more than one, let that attorney handle all the claims as will give more creedence to the validity of that claim. At that point once a lawsuit is filed, generally this will cause the marine to file the claim with the insurance carrier. The insurance company will either then talk with you or the attorney if one is involve. Hearsay will not prove your claim as you will need to prove liabilty.

crazy dave condon

 

[Sail R]

SAIL R. I'm back from work finally.

DonnyBrook, Bill Roosa and KD3PC -- PLEASE -- let us not fight each other over this. I really want to have SAILR come back to explain.

But, BTW, I do not think that tapping a second phase turns everything else into 240V. If I remember right, the common split phase transformer we use for a house take a single phase and places one of two wires, now 180 degrees out of cycle, so that on one bus it has 120V and the other 120V, but when you put them together, you show 240V.

Now, in a house, if you want 240V, such as for a cloth dryer or oven, you take a phase from one bus in the panel, and a phase from the other bus in your panel, and you get 240V. But only to that cord. NOTHING ELSE attached will be 240V and EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE HOUSE IS ATTACHED, BTW on one phase or the other.

So, I do not think it is plausible to have another boater cross-phase the electricity for everyone else.

I think I will wait for SAILR to come back, if he is not in fact already with rod and reel in hand, outriggers ready, you know what I mean?

Thanks for the the response. I appreciate it. Sorry I couldn't update until now, here goes.



The voltages were as I described, rapidly changing.

When the Marinas employee (not a DWP guy) showed up he worked on wiring where it meets the edge of the dock. See photo

This area moves up and down with the tide. The incoming wires are in a large heavily insulated waterproof looped bundle that flexes and then contracts with the tides, The Marina worker made his repair in this pictured connection box.

Notice the condition of this box, the rubber water proofing gasket is missing. In fact both bolts that secure the cover are missing and the cover is held on with black electrical tape. Photo taken this morning.

The worker made his repairs here and no where else. When he left the ac voltages were back to normal.

Again, no tenant needed to do anything to accomplish this repair, it was 100% to do with the docks wiring the worker repaired.

 

[RobertLangdirect]

Thanks for the add'l info

Thanks for the the response. I appreciate it. Sorry I couldn't update until now, here goes.

The voltages were as I described, rapidly changing. . . . See photo . . . .

Notice the condition of this box, the rubber water proofing gasket is missing. . . . .

You might want to get a local newspaper and use it to date the photo. Negligence may be a factor in how this eventually gets settled.

If it were me, I'd call my insurance, and my lawyer.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

A picture is worth a thousand words and you have proof of claim. Have you presented this picture to the marina operator? If so and no response, you may want to consider small claims court. You will have to go and file and there is an associated fee and make sure you pay to have the document delivered. If you win the case, your fees are included.

When you do file and the marina operator has been served, then they usually turn it over to the insurance carrier. I am not sure you have the time or want to go thru small claims court but that is a decision you will have to make. Whether to be represented or not is up to you.

Hopefully the marina operator will work with you once you show them that photo.

crazy dave condon