Who is at fault?
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rule 12(a)
Rule 12 (a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows: 1. when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other; The vessel heading upwind on port tack was at fault for the collision. Seems straightforward unless I'm missing something in the video.
Rule 12 (a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows: 1. when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other; The vessel heading upwind on port tack was at fault for the collision. Seems straightforward unless I'm missing something in the video.
Rule 99.6
Rule 99.6, While racing, all boats must proceed without caution trying to attain maximum speed of their vessels in an attempt to cross the finish line first, lookout be damned. This is why I do not really like competitive racing. Even 'non competitive' racing can be a bit dangerous at the starting line or around a buoy or finish. I am with Peter from VA though that that in this case the port tack boat should have given way first (12 a) but the other boat had just rounded the mark and raised their spin on a starboard tack and they hit the other boat on the port tack. My opinion does not matter but I think that they both deserve blame (had it come to damages or law suits) because neither attempted to avert the collision. Not sure how it would come down in a race protest.
Rule 99.6, While racing, all boats must proceed without caution trying to attain maximum speed of their vessels in an attempt to cross the finish line first, lookout be damned. This is why I do not really like competitive racing. Even 'non competitive' racing can be a bit dangerous at the starting line or around a buoy or finish. I am with Peter from VA though that that in this case the port tack boat should have given way first (12 a) but the other boat had just rounded the mark and raised their spin on a starboard tack and they hit the other boat on the port tack. My opinion does not matter but I think that they both deserve blame (had it come to damages or law suits) because neither attempted to avert the collision. Not sure how it would come down in a race protest.
I have been in a lot of Protest hearings and i believe
the starboard tack boat is at fault. The starboard tack boat was completing a rounding and setting a chute. He was falling off while he was doing it, and he altered course from one that would pass astern of the port tack boat to one that caused the collision. The rule that applies (number forgotten) is a right or way yacht on a tack, shall not alter its course to prevent a burdened yacht from keeping clear. You can never tell what a protest committee will do, but I vote against the starboard tack boat. Joe S
the starboard tack boat is at fault. The starboard tack boat was completing a rounding and setting a chute. He was falling off while he was doing it, and he altered course from one that would pass astern of the port tack boat to one that caused the collision. The rule that applies (number forgotten) is a right or way yacht on a tack, shall not alter its course to prevent a burdened yacht from keeping clear. You can never tell what a protest committee will do, but I vote against the starboard tack boat. Joe S
The port tack boat was going upwind
and the boat with the blue spinnaker being set was going downwind, pretty far by then from the mark. The leeward boat coming upwind should have been given room to pass by the boat coming downwind. Doesn't seem to matter what tack he was on.
and the boat with the blue spinnaker being set was going downwind, pretty far by then from the mark. The leeward boat coming upwind should have been given room to pass by the boat coming downwind. Doesn't seem to matter what tack he was on.
My Humble Opinion
1. Leeward boat is stand-on boat when both vessels are on same tack. Does not apply here. Starboard tack is stand on vessel when on opposite tacks. Starboard tack vessel did not appear to stand-on, was falling to port and probably was preparing to gybe. Therefore starboard tack vessel is most at fault. Port tack vessel failed to take action to avoid collision and therefore also bears some resposibility.
1. Leeward boat is stand-on boat when both vessels are on same tack. Does not apply here. Starboard tack is stand on vessel when on opposite tacks. Starboard tack vessel did not appear to stand-on, was falling to port and probably was preparing to gybe. Therefore starboard tack vessel is most at fault. Port tack vessel failed to take action to avoid collision and therefore also bears some resposibility.
My thoughts...
The smart alec response would be to ban racing all together. However, I don't think the skipper of the boat rounding the mark was paying attention. I think he was too busy watching his chute deploy and fill. But I think the boat heading to the mark must give way to the boat who already rounded the mark. Were they still within the circle of the mark? Don't know. In sailing there are written rules and unwritten rules. The most important unwritten rule is stay out of everyone's way. My opine is shared blame. Skipper not paying attention and downwind boat not giving way.
The smart alec response would be to ban racing all together. However, I don't think the skipper of the boat rounding the mark was paying attention. I think he was too busy watching his chute deploy and fill. But I think the boat heading to the mark must give way to the boat who already rounded the mark. Were they still within the circle of the mark? Don't know. In sailing there are written rules and unwritten rules. The most important unwritten rule is stay out of everyone's way. My opine is shared blame. Skipper not paying attention and downwind boat not giving way.
I agree totally...
with Brian... except not to ban racing! The sailor going up wind on Port tack had to know what he was getting into... he was in a bad position at the mark. The boat with the chute had the right of way... however could of beared down to avoid collision... and just pulled the protest flag.
with Brian... except not to ban racing! The sailor going up wind on Port tack had to know what he was getting into... he was in a bad position at the mark. The boat with the chute had the right of way... however could of beared down to avoid collision... and just pulled the protest flag.
Great Clip!
First off, a couple of observations: Man, those boats accelerate fast! Second, they lose a tremendous amount of speed if they try to pinch. Third, the right side of the course was heavily favored and a lot of boats sailing the middle part of the course (and coming into the mark on port tack) were pinching way too much while trying to fetch the mark and not maintaining their optimum VMG. And finally, one design racing is brutal! With all boats evenly matched in speed potential, there usually is a traffic jam at the marks. The Racing Rules of Sailing are there to protect the racers. Understand the rules and no one gets hurt and everyone has a good time. When a rule is not understood (or followed), that’s when boats collide. The rules are unambiguous, you are either in the right or in the wrong. Blame is not apportioned (albeit, there can be multiple infractions stemming from one incident). Rule 10 (boats on different tacks) applies in this incident. The port boat had the responsibility to avoid the starboard boat no matter what the stb. boat did (other than tacking, but that is a different rule). If the port boat skipper sailed better (by footing off and maintaining his optimum VMG) he probably would have avoided contact. But by pinching, he gave up a certain amount of maneuverability. If I was to hazard a guess, it would be the port boat skipper was looking at the mark and not paying attention to the multiple crossing situations he was about to encounter. The rules that don’t apply. Rule 11 (windward/leeward) doesn’t apply as the boats were on different tacks. Rule 13 (tacking too close) doesn’t apply as the stb boat already had rounded the mark and it’s sails set on the new tack (this rule generally applies to boats on the same tack when one of them suddenly tacks on top of the other to create a crossing situation). Rule 16 (maintaining a proper course) also doesn’t apply as the boats were on different tacks. The “Avoiding Contact” rule tends to get misinterpreted a lot. The rule is there so there are no intentional collisions. A boat cannot ram another while enforcing its “rights”. The proper recourse is for the boat in the right to avoid contact and then protest the offending boat. Likewise, a burdened boat cannot “play chicken” with a privileged boat. How I saw the clip, the two boats had a glancing blow, with their rigging making contact. I do not believe that the stb boat’s skipper intended to collide with the other guy and was fully expecting the port boat skipper to “do the right thing”.
First off, a couple of observations: Man, those boats accelerate fast! Second, they lose a tremendous amount of speed if they try to pinch. Third, the right side of the course was heavily favored and a lot of boats sailing the middle part of the course (and coming into the mark on port tack) were pinching way too much while trying to fetch the mark and not maintaining their optimum VMG. And finally, one design racing is brutal! With all boats evenly matched in speed potential, there usually is a traffic jam at the marks. The Racing Rules of Sailing are there to protect the racers. Understand the rules and no one gets hurt and everyone has a good time. When a rule is not understood (or followed), that’s when boats collide. The rules are unambiguous, you are either in the right or in the wrong. Blame is not apportioned (albeit, there can be multiple infractions stemming from one incident). Rule 10 (boats on different tacks) applies in this incident. The port boat had the responsibility to avoid the starboard boat no matter what the stb. boat did (other than tacking, but that is a different rule). If the port boat skipper sailed better (by footing off and maintaining his optimum VMG) he probably would have avoided contact. But by pinching, he gave up a certain amount of maneuverability. If I was to hazard a guess, it would be the port boat skipper was looking at the mark and not paying attention to the multiple crossing situations he was about to encounter. The rules that don’t apply. Rule 11 (windward/leeward) doesn’t apply as the boats were on different tacks. Rule 13 (tacking too close) doesn’t apply as the stb boat already had rounded the mark and it’s sails set on the new tack (this rule generally applies to boats on the same tack when one of them suddenly tacks on top of the other to create a crossing situation). Rule 16 (maintaining a proper course) also doesn’t apply as the boats were on different tacks. The “Avoiding Contact” rule tends to get misinterpreted a lot. The rule is there so there are no intentional collisions. A boat cannot ram another while enforcing its “rights”. The proper recourse is for the boat in the right to avoid contact and then protest the offending boat. Likewise, a burdened boat cannot “play chicken” with a privileged boat. How I saw the clip, the two boats had a glancing blow, with their rigging making contact. I do not believe that the stb boat’s skipper intended to collide with the other guy and was fully expecting the port boat skipper to “do the right thing”.
ROW boat has limits too
First off I must acknowledge that I don't have a current copy of the racing rules and haven't raced for many years. That said, it looked like the S boat bore off his proper course, in a manner that could not have reasonably been predicted by P. S's crew were too busy with changing sails to a chute to pay attention to where they were going, and consequently crossed below their proper course and into oncoming traffic in a matter of seconds after the rounding. Arguably, they might have been deemed still tacking, and therefore not established as S. If the rule still looks at whether the main was filled, they had completed their tack and were established as the S boat. There used to be, and I assume still is in some form, a rule prohibiting the ROW boat (here S) from changing course in a manner that prevents the burdened boat (P) from giving way and thereby keeping clear. I assume that rule still exists. On that basis, I would say S was at fault. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
First off I must acknowledge that I don't have a current copy of the racing rules and haven't raced for many years. That said, it looked like the S boat bore off his proper course, in a manner that could not have reasonably been predicted by P. S's crew were too busy with changing sails to a chute to pay attention to where they were going, and consequently crossed below their proper course and into oncoming traffic in a matter of seconds after the rounding. Arguably, they might have been deemed still tacking, and therefore not established as S. If the rule still looks at whether the main was filled, they had completed their tack and were established as the S boat. There used to be, and I assume still is in some form, a rule prohibiting the ROW boat (here S) from changing course in a manner that prevents the burdened boat (P) from giving way and thereby keeping clear. I assume that rule still exists. On that basis, I would say S was at fault. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Racing Rules of Sailing
“Proper course” (Rule 16) does not apply because the boats are on opposite tacks. It applies to boats on the same tack so the “lifting” boat cannot force the other into a tack. On opposite tacks, the port boat must always give way to the stb boat. Imagine a crossing situation with both boats going to windward and a gust (or wind shift) alters the stb boat’s course. The port boat still has the obligation to give way. If you look closely at the clip, there was a shift which caused the stb boat to momentarily go “deep” which he is allowed to do under the rules. Port tack boat has the responsibility to look out for stb boats and to maneuver to avoid contact. Once again, on opposite tacks (Rule 10) there is no “proper course”. Rule 13 addresses when a boat is on its new course after tacking. The definition is still the mainsail full and drawing. A tacking boat does not acquire “rights” as a stb boat until that occurs. And once again, that rule is in place so there is no unsafe tacking on top of a competitor. In the clip, the stb boat always was on stb tack. He was on stb when he fetched the mark and when he rounded, he merely fell off to a stb run. Years ago in the GGYC midwinters my division was one (or was it two?) starts behind a very aggressive 25 boat J105 fleet. Invariably, I would be caught near the windward mark on port, trying to fetch the stb layline, when these guys would be stampeding like the charge of the light brigade downwind with their chutes flying and all on stb. Threading that mess was always a white knuckle experience especially while trying hard not to lose ground with our own competitors.
“Proper course” (Rule 16) does not apply because the boats are on opposite tacks. It applies to boats on the same tack so the “lifting” boat cannot force the other into a tack. On opposite tacks, the port boat must always give way to the stb boat. Imagine a crossing situation with both boats going to windward and a gust (or wind shift) alters the stb boat’s course. The port boat still has the obligation to give way. If you look closely at the clip, there was a shift which caused the stb boat to momentarily go “deep” which he is allowed to do under the rules. Port tack boat has the responsibility to look out for stb boats and to maneuver to avoid contact. Once again, on opposite tacks (Rule 10) there is no “proper course”. Rule 13 addresses when a boat is on its new course after tacking. The definition is still the mainsail full and drawing. A tacking boat does not acquire “rights” as a stb boat until that occurs. And once again, that rule is in place so there is no unsafe tacking on top of a competitor. In the clip, the stb boat always was on stb tack. He was on stb when he fetched the mark and when he rounded, he merely fell off to a stb run. Years ago in the GGYC midwinters my division was one (or was it two?) starts behind a very aggressive 25 boat J105 fleet. Invariably, I would be caught near the windward mark on port, trying to fetch the stb layline, when these guys would be stampeding like the charge of the light brigade downwind with their chutes flying and all on stb. Threading that mess was always a white knuckle experience especially while trying hard not to lose ground with our own competitors.
It's a good thingI
that I have no interest in sailboat racing. In years past, when I was racing two wheelers, if you were on a patch of dirt that I wanted, I'd run over you if I thought I could.
that I have no interest in sailboat racing. In years past, when I was racing two wheelers, if you were on a patch of dirt that I wanted, I'd run over you if I thought I could.
I didn't remember the rule number but here it is.
This is a USYRU discussion of rule 16 16 Changing Course When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear. – Overview Rule 16 governs how a r-o-w boat may change course. Defined terms: Keep Clear and Room. – Basic Whenever a r-o-w boat changes course she must allow the giveway boat "room to keep clear." The term "course" means r-o-w's compass course so if the wind shifts and r-o-w changes her compass course to keep the same relative wind angle she has "changed course." Similar to the discussion above under Rule 15 (Acquiring Right of Way), "room to keep clear" would be: the space needed by the giveway boat to avoid the r-o-w boat presuming the giveway boat acts in a seamanlike way (based on the existing conditions) promptly after the r-o-w boat changes course. – Advanced If boats are on rapidly converging courses, then the question to ask is - Did r-o-w change course far enough from giveway so that giveway could keep clear by acting promptly in a seamanlike way (i.e., was it possible for giveway to avoid r-o-w by acting promptly without having to make an unseamanlike maneuver such as a "crash tack")? If boats are sailing side by side the question to ask is - Did r-o-w change course so suddenly and radically that giveway could not keep clear by acting promptly in a seamanlike way? I still vote against the starboard tack boat. higgs, I hope you have the results of the protest. Joe S
This is a USYRU discussion of rule 16 16 Changing Course When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear. – Overview Rule 16 governs how a r-o-w boat may change course. Defined terms: Keep Clear and Room. – Basic Whenever a r-o-w boat changes course she must allow the giveway boat "room to keep clear." The term "course" means r-o-w's compass course so if the wind shifts and r-o-w changes her compass course to keep the same relative wind angle she has "changed course." Similar to the discussion above under Rule 15 (Acquiring Right of Way), "room to keep clear" would be: the space needed by the giveway boat to avoid the r-o-w boat presuming the giveway boat acts in a seamanlike way (based on the existing conditions) promptly after the r-o-w boat changes course. – Advanced If boats are on rapidly converging courses, then the question to ask is - Did r-o-w change course far enough from giveway so that giveway could keep clear by acting promptly in a seamanlike way (i.e., was it possible for giveway to avoid r-o-w by acting promptly without having to make an unseamanlike maneuver such as a "crash tack")? If boats are sailing side by side the question to ask is - Did r-o-w change course so suddenly and radically that giveway could not keep clear by acting promptly in a seamanlike way? I still vote against the starboard tack boat. higgs, I hope you have the results of the protest. Joe S
I do not
have the results of the protest. I don't know racing rules very well, so I don't have an opinion. I was hoping for a clear explanation from a racer on the board. It appears to me that the downwind boat had not established a course and continued to change his course up to the collision.
have the results of the protest. I don't know racing rules very well, so I don't have an opinion. I was hoping for a clear explanation from a racer on the board. It appears to me that the downwind boat had not established a course and continued to change his course up to the collision.
Nice N Easy...
I am very glad you are staying away from the regatta scene! You and your crew would definately want to wear helmets. Tim R... you race... what is your verdict?
I am very glad you are staying away from the regatta scene! You and your crew would definately want to wear helmets. Tim R... you race... what is your verdict?
Ban racing Brian D???
Really???? Maybe we should ban smart alec's ;-) I agree with Rich. I do race and there are many levels of racing. These guys appear fairly aggressive. I started racing and it is the best thing I ever did for my skills. I have been sailing for 35 years but I learned a huge amount my first couple of seasons racing. I encourage everyone to at least get a ride on a boat to experience this. Anyone in the S. Maine area is welcome to crew on my boat Wed. nights this summer. Maine Sail is a regular and I hope to get Rich out there this season. BTW, the crew brings beer for the skipper!
Really???? Maybe we should ban smart alec's ;-) I agree with Rich. I do race and there are many levels of racing. These guys appear fairly aggressive. I started racing and it is the best thing I ever did for my skills. I have been sailing for 35 years but I learned a huge amount my first couple of seasons racing. I encourage everyone to at least get a ride on a boat to experience this. Anyone in the S. Maine area is welcome to crew on my boat Wed. nights this summer. Maine Sail is a regular and I hope to get Rich out there this season. BTW, the crew brings beer for the skipper!
BTW
These type of collisions occur mostly on somebody else's boat. I was speaking to the racing coach of Maine Maritime last year after a race and he said that some of the kids at other schools will try to take other boats out if there is a rule infraction instead of filing a proper protest.
These type of collisions occur mostly on somebody else's boat. I was speaking to the racing coach of Maine Maritime last year after a race and he said that some of the kids at other schools will try to take other boats out if there is a rule infraction instead of filing a proper protest.
Rich! Helmets, what a great idea!
I'll have my crew don crash helmets for the starting line! That!, should clear any annoying competition from any end of the line we want.
I'll have my crew don crash helmets for the starting line! That!, should clear any annoying competition from any end of the line we want.
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