Whisker pole on jib - sheet or clew ring?

[stickinthemud57]

When using a whisker pole on the foresail, the proscribed method appears to be attaching one end of the pole to the sheet that will be used to trim the sail and the other end (of course) to the attachment on the mast.

On our recent race, the crew and I were having trouble keeping the whisker pole close enough to the jib clew to be effective, and our foredeck crew member just resorted to camping out on the foredeck to push the pole back into place. Bit of a hassle.

I have read that keeping the sheet end of the pole in place is accomplished by keeping proper tension on the jib sheet, but it seems to me that running dead downwind that once you get that tension set, things should stay pretty much as set. I would rather have the crew in the cockpit, especially running downwind.

My Genoa has a metal ring at the clew to which the whisker pole would easily attach. Doing so would solve the problem of it slipping back away from the clew, but is there any reason that this would be a bad idea?

Thanks in advance for you thoughts/advice.

 

[capta]

What you need is a foreguy. Just like on a spinnaker, you need a foreguy from the end of the pole to the bow. Most are pretty lazy and do not use an afterguy, though in conjunction with the foreguy and topping lift it keeps the pole end in place and allows one to sheet in or out the headsail.
On a long trip, you'd have to watch for chafe.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I’ve added a soft shackle to my jib clew to clip the pole to. The soft shackle is nice and thin, so it’s easier to unclip when approaching the leeward mark, and it avoids the problem you had with the pole sliding aft. On a long run the foreguy capta suggests could work well, but I use the pole on a lot of short race legs where it would be lots of overhead.

 

[DArcy]

On a 26 foot boat a foreguy isn't really necessary for a whisker pole. On bigger poles it's a good idea to have more control lines. I would tie the jib sheets to the sail with largish loops in a bowline. This allows the whisker pole to be clipped into the loop so it won't slide aft on the sheet.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Capta - Thanks for the advice. I Googled foreguy and found some photos that illustrate its use. I can see how using a foreguy would solve the problem, but unfortunately would complicate set-up. When working with inexperienced crew members (which is the definition of Fleet 7), even the basics can be challenging. My hope is to find a simple solution that does not add to the complexity of the task.
David - If I am understanding your suggestion, the soft shackle amounts to a loop of rope at the clew that might be easier to clip the whisker pole to than the clew ring. I can also see how that would avoid problems with twisting of the pole. Like you, our races are definitely "short leg".
Darcy - Yours sound like a similar solution to David's, just using a different approach, right?

So still the question remains: Would having the whisker pole secured at or near the clew (rather than over the sheet) set up some kind of undesirable situation?

 

[Davidasailor26]

David - If I am understanding your suggestion, the soft shackle amounts to a loop of rope at the clew that might be easier to clip the whisker pole to than the clew ring.

Yes, exactly. In my case I use a dyneema soft shackle about 5” in diameter.

So still the question remains: Would having the whisker pole secured at or near the clew (rather than over the sheet) set up some kind of undesirable situation?

Before using the soft shackle I attached the pole to the clew ring sometimes and the bowline loop of the jib sheets sometimes. They worked alright, but sometimes the pole would want to twist in such a way that the pin would bind, and there wasn’t much room there to untwist it. I have a twist-lock pole, which probably contributed to the binding. A fixed pole might be easier to keep aligned.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Yes, exactly. In my case I use a dyneema soft shackle about 5” in diameter.


Before using the soft shackle I attached the pole to the clew ring sometimes and the bowline loop of the jib sheets sometimes. They worked alright, but sometimes the pole would want to twist in such a way that the pin would bind, and there wasn’t much room there to untwist it. I have a twist-lock pole, which probably contributed to the binding. A fixed pole might be easier to keep aligned.

My whisker pole is twist-lock as well, so torque resulting from being attached to a rigid clew ring could cause it to collapse. Not good. I think I will give your approach a go, but do it on the cheap with a loop of rope.

 

[tfox2069]

This is an excellent article on how to "properly" pole out your jib/genoa. Using this technique gives you a lot of control over your whisker pole and should fix the pole sliding down the sheet problem. The author's opinion is you don't have much control over the pole if its clipped to the sail directly - the wind, and the sail control the whisker pole at that point, which she opines is dangerous. I suppose that's probably true - if you backwinded the jib/genoa unexpectedly you'd probably wrap that expensive whisker pole around the mast and ruin it. Set up this way you can furl the headsail and leave the whiskerpole in place. Makes a ton of sense if you're cruising long distance.

Pam Says: How to Rig a Downwind Pole | Cruising World

That said, my use case is mostly day sails, so I typically only pole it out in light consistent wind from behind the boat, and very little chance of an accidental gybe. So I use a soft shackle on my 135 genoa. Its also much simpler when shorthanded.

 

[jssailem]

do it on the cheap with a loop of rope.

Tie a soft shackle out of 40" of 1/4" or 3/16" dyneema (less than a tall Starbucks Latte) , and it will last the lifetime of your boat ownership.

 

[DArcy]

This is an excellent article on how to "properly" pole out your jib/genoa. Using this technique gives you a lot of control over your whisker pole and should fix the pole sliding down the sheet problem. The author's opinion is you don't have much control over the pole if its clipped to the sail directly - the wind, and the sail control the whisker pole at that point, which she opines is dangerous. I suppose that's probably true - if you backwinded the jib/genoa unexpectedly you'd probably wrap that expensive whisker pole around the mast and ruin it. Set up this way you can furl the headsail and leave the whiskerpole in place. Makes a ton of sense if you're cruising long distance.

Pam Says: How to Rig a Downwind Pole | Cruising World

That said, my use case is mostly day sails, so I typically only pole it out in light consistent wind from behind the boat, and very little chance of an accidental gybe. So I use a soft shackle on my 135 genoa. Its also much simpler when shorthanded.

Pam is discussing techniques to " remain in place for hours or days when sailing down the trades". I agree this is the way to go for a boat sailing offshore but by the time this is all set up @stickinthemud57 would be at the leeward mark. I like the suggestion of a loop in the clew to clip into, sized to avoid twisting the pole.

 

[stickinthemud57]

I agree this is the way to go for a boat sailing offshore but by the time this is all set up @stickinthemud57 would be at the leeward mark.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Tie a soft shackle out of 40" of 1/4" or 3/16" dyneema (less than a tall Starbucks Latte) , and it will last the lifetime of your boat ownership.

I have some extra Dyneema!
A bowline is the height of my knot-tying repertoire. How does one tie a soft shackle?

 

[Davidasailor26]

I have some extra Dyneema!
A bowline is the height of my knot-tying repertoire. How does one tie a soft shackle?

There are a few different approaches for that. The one I used for this was similar to

. Some approaches leave you with a loop with two lines, which I figured would be harder to grab with the pole, so I used the approach that ends up with only a single loop. Splicing the dyneema is remarkably easy. The hardest part I thought was the stopper knot at the end.

 

[jssailem]

I have used the technique described by David. It works. An perhaps is a little easier to tie than the Brian Toss Soft Shackle. I prefer to tie the "Toss" soft shackle due to the improved strength.

Here are 2 video links. If you have questions I would be happy to try and answer.

Soft Shackle (Stronger)

Soft Shackle (Stronger).

www.animatedknots.com

I encourage you, when burying the tails, to taper the ends. It makes the knot much stronger.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I have used the technique described by David. It works. An perhaps is a little easier to tie than the Brian Toss Soft Shackle. I prefer to tie the "Toss" soft shackle due to the improved strength.

Here are 2 video links. If you have questions I would be happy to try and answer.

Soft Shackle (Stronger)

Soft Shackle (Stronger).

www.animatedknots.com

I encourage you, when burying the tails, to taper the ends. It makes the knot much stronger.

The stronger version is what I’ve tied for some spare general purpose soft shackles. It’s also easy enough, so a good tool to have in the toolbox.

 

[Joe]

Capta - Thanks for the advice. I Googled foreguy and found some photos that illustrate its use. I can see how using a foreguy would solve the problem, but unfortunately would complicate set-up.

I think that if just tried using the fore guy once you would see that there is nothing complicated about it at all. In fact it, it is the most simple and logical solution offered in this discussion. That's why there is a place on the pole to hook one up, as well as place to attach a topping lift. When you gybe the sail you stand at the mast, leave the foreguy and topping lift connected, release the clew end of the pole, bring it across, releasing the mast end for a short time may make this easier, clipping in the new sheet, push the pole out clip it to the mast, and trim in the new sheet as the sail comes through the foretriangle. easy peasy. At least, try it. BTW you can practice this at the dock if you tie the boat so it's facing downwind. But at least, let someone else steer while you learn to do it so you'll know what to say to the crew.

 

[tfox2069]

I think that if just tried using the fore guy once you would see that there is nothing complicated about it at all. In fact it, it is the most simple and logical solution offered in this discussion. That's why there is a place on the pole to hook one up, as well as place to attach a topping lift. When you gybe the sail you stand at the mast, leave the foreguy and topping lift connected, release the clew end of the pole, bring it across, releasing the mast end for a short time may make this easier, clipping in the new sheet, push the pole out clip it to the mast, and trim in the new sheet as the sail comes through the foretriangle. easy peasy. At least, try it. BTW you can practice this at the dock if you tie the boat so it's facing downwind. But at least, let someone else steer while you learn to do it so you'll know what to say to the crew.

Just thinking out loud here, but wouldn't a spinnaker halyard be better to use than a topping lift (though I acknowledge that's the commonly referenced line to take the weight of the whisker pole)? I'm just thinking that the topping lift would have to be wrapped around the mast in order to be clipped to the whisker pole, and even further wrapped when you gybe the headsail, whereas the spinnaker halyard already comes out the front of the mast and wouldn't suffer from this issue. And on my B&R rig the spinnaker halyard exits below the jib halyard, so is effectively inside the forestay. Perhaps since the downward load on the topping lift isn't significant its not a problem.

 

[stickinthemud57]

While I greatly appreciate the input, I think maybe for my specific situation, I need to clarify a few things.

My sailing is in protected waters, on short-legged races, and working with inexperienced crew. The focus is on the absolute most simple solution that will be safe and minimize foredeck time. The 26S is much lighter and less stable than keelboats of the same size, and wakes from the numerous powerboats in our little lake just add to the problem.

Since no one has made any comments as to why the more simple solutions (attaching the whisker pole to the clew ring or a loop of rope at the clew) would be undesirable or inadvisable, I think I will just go with that.

It is always interested to learn of various techniques that might serve me or other sailors in other situations, so thanks again for all the responses!

 

[tfox2069]

While I greatly appreciate the input, I think maybe for my specific situation, I need to clarify a few things.

My sailing is in protected waters, on short-legged races, and working with inexperienced crew. The focus is on the absolute most simple solution that will be safe and minimize foredeck time. The 26S is much lighter and less stable than keelboats of the same size, and wakes from the numerous powerboats in our little lake just add to the problem.

Since no one has made any comments as to why the more simple solutions (attaching the whisker pole to the clew ring or a loop of rope at the clew) would be undesirable or inadvisable, I think I will just go with that.

It is always interested to learn of various techniques that might serve me or other sailors in other situations, so thanks again for all the responses!

I'm with you - I usually sail shorthanded and the simplest technique is what I use - clipping to a soft shackle on the sail, and to the mast fitting. BUT, there's risk with that approach, and I mentioned it briefly in my previous post. This article talks about what can happen with that shortcut - so just be aware, especially in a small lake where you say wakes cause a real issue (e.g. wake induced flogging of the headsail):

The Blue View - Whisker Pole Repair — Just a Little Further

Also, here's a thread on a Mac 26s using a whisker pole that ended up in disaster. A cautionary tale - you're the captain, so you get to balance risk vs reward here, but do so with all the information.

whisker pole | Sailboat Owners Forums

 

[Davidasailor26]

Just thinking out loud here, but wouldn't a spinnaker halyard be better to use than a topping lift (though I acknowledge that's the commonly referenced line to take the weight of the whisker pole)? I'm just thinking that the topping lift would have to be wrapped around the mast in order to be clipped to the whisker pole, and even further wrapped when you gybe the headsail, whereas the spinnaker halyard already comes out the front of the mast and wouldn't suffer from this issue. And on my B&R rig the spinnaker halyard exits below the jib halyard, so is effectively inside the forestay. Perhaps since the downward load on the topping lift isn't significant its not a problem.

When people talk about a topping lift for the pole they mean a dedicated topping lift from the front of the mast, not to boom topping lift. Most spinnaker halyards exit above or in front of the forestay, which leads to a wrap when gybing. If your spinnaker halyard is inside the foretriange that would work fine.