Where does your vented loop for your head intake run?

[patrickkidd]

Hi there!

I want to install a vented loop on the raw water intake for my head to protect against siphoning and sinking the boat. Where do you have yours run on your Catalina 30? My father's J/35 has two holes drilled into the back of the counter top and the valve mounted just under where the bottom of the cabinet would be on my boat. This would be unsightly for me, but probably the only option?

Thoughts? Thanks!
-P

 

[woodster]

try this

 

[FastOlson]

Factory system did not have either "vent", and after a total rebuild of our head and holding tank system we do not. Given that we close the head valve thru hulls any time we are ashore, is there a reason that you want to make this change? (Not criticizing what you want to do, just wondering why.)

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Given that we close the head valve thru hulls any time we are ashore, is there a reason that you want to make this change?

People are fallible...the one time you forget or you're short of time in closing up the boat and decide "oh leaving seacocks open once won't matter" will the time you should have taken the time to close ALL of 'em. The vented loop is a fail-safe that will protect your boat.

But it's not only when leaving the boat that you need the intake vented loop...anyone--and especially guests--can leave the toilet in the wet mode...I remember crewing in a club race and needing to visit the head just in time to switch the toilet to the dry mode before the bowl overflowed. The boat in the next slip wasn't quite that lucky...they were manning mops and buckets when we pulled in after the race. Their kids had been below during the race and one of 'em noticed water running out from under the head door. If no one had been below to notice it, it could have been a lot bigger mess.

Both owners installed intake vented loops the next weekend.

As the drawing Woody posted shows, it has go between the pump and the bowl...if you put it between the thru-hull and the pump, it'll prevent the toilet from priming. It needs to be at least 6-8" above waterline AT MAX HEEL...which on most sailboats puts it 2-3 FEET above the bowl. (see photo..the smaller one is the intake loop. If you flush only into the tank, you don't need the discharge loop).

Toilet mfrs never include an intake vented loop because they're not needed on toilets that are entirely above the boat's waterline, only on toilets that have at least part of the bowl below waterline. Every mfr includes vented loops and drawings similar to the one Woody posted in their installation instructions and naively expect owners and dealers to read them.

 

[patrickkidd]

try this.

To take out the human factor, but also I understand that when the flapper valve in the head pump fails everything happens within a day or two.

As the drawing Woody posted shows, it has go between the pump and the bowl...

Peggy, thanks for the reminder, I had remembered it the other way around. I suppose this indirectly answers my question, in that I should just bolt the loop to the wall like every other installation photo I've seen. The question of drilling through the counter does not apply if it is the intake into the bowl.

Thanks!

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

The question of drilling through the counter does not apply if it is the intake into the bowl.

Drilling through what counter? Putting ANY vented loop--intake or discharge-- under a vanity won't work on most monohull sailboats (boats that heel) because it's too low for it to be 6-8" above waterline at maximum heel. However, if there's a hanging locker behind the toilet, you could hide the loop(s) in there.

 

[patrickkidd]

Drilling through what counter? Putting ANY vented loop--intake or discharge-- under a vanity won't work on most monohull sailboats (boats that heel) because it's too for it to be 6-8" above waterline at maximum heel. However, if there's a hanging locker behind the toilet, you could hide the loop(s) in there.

The counter is behind the head, with a hanging vanity. When I thought the loop was supposed to be between the seacock and the pump - which your post reminded me as incorrect - it would have to pass through the counter and up toward and possibly even into the vanity to achieve the correct height. At any rate, this is a mute point now since the loop is supposed to be between the pump and the bowl which never enters the space under the cabinet.

Cheers

 

[Tucson Sailor]

Our vented loop is inside the forward salon cabinet on the port side. There is an open area in the outboard, lower part of the bulkhead separating the salon and the head. The outbound and inbound hoses run aft from the head into the holding tank space. From there the hose run up through a hole in the bottom of the cabinet shelf to the top of the cabinet space where the vented loop is mounted. Easy access and easy replacement. The holding tank air vent tubing connecting to the port stanchion runs through the same area. Good luck.

 

[patrickkidd]

Our vented loop is inside the forward salon cabinet on the port side. There is an open area in the outboard, lower part of the bulkhead separating the salon and the head. The outbound and inbound hoses run aft from the head into the holding tank space. From there the hose run up through a hole in the bottom of the cabinet shelf to the top of the cabinet space where the vented loop is mounted. Easy access and easy replacement. The holding tank air vent tubing connecting to the port stanchion runs through the same area. Good luck.

Oh man, that's actually a good idea. Better aesthetics. I just ran it up the wall. It sure made pumping harder though, in both valve modes. Still worth not having the boat sink though!

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I just ran it up the wall. It sure made pumping harder though, in both valve modes. Still worth not having the boat sink though!

We're talking about the INLET vented loop..It shouldn't make bringing flush water in any harder. But if flushing in both modes has gotten harder, it sounds like your toilet may need a new joker valve.

Most people think that the only thing the joker valve does is acts as a check valve to stop backflow from returning to the toilet or odor from the tank from escaping through the toilet. But that's not a joker valve's most important function...in fact, the joker valve is THE single most important replaceable part in a manual toilet.
Here’s how the discharge half of the pump works: On the upstroke of the piston, a vacuum is created in the area beneath the piston. This causes the joker valve to close tightly, and the flapper valve beneath the pump to open, allowing some of the contents of the toilet bowl to be drawn into the bottom half of the pump. Then, on the down stroke of the piston, the flapper valve is slammed shut, and the effluent is forced out of the bottom of the pump, through the joker valve, and off down the line. But when the joker valve becomes worn and/or there's a buildup of sea water minerals on it, it can no longer seal tightly on the upstroke of the piston...less vacuum is generated when you pump it. And as it becomes more worn less and less vacuum, till finally the bowl contents simply move up and down a bit, but don't go anywhere. Which is why the joker valve should be replaced annually. Sometimes the flapper valve needs to be replaced too, which is why toilets should also be rebuilt at least every 5-6 years as PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE.

 

[patrickkidd]

We're talking about the INLET vented loop..It shouldn't make bringing flush water in any harder. But if flushing in both modes has gotten harder, it sounds like your toilet may need a new joker valve.

Most people think that the only thing the joker valve does is acts as a check valve to stop backflow from returning to the toilet or odor from the tank from escaping through the toilet. But that's not a joker valve's most important function...in fact, the joker valve is THE single most important replaceable part in a manual toilet.
Here’s how the discharge half of the pump works: On the upstroke of the piston, a vacuum is created in the area beneath the piston. This causes the joker valve to close tightly, and the flapper valve beneath the pump to open, allowing some of the contents of the toilet bowl to be drawn into the bottom half of the pump. Then, on the down stroke of the piston, the flapper valve is slammed shut, and the effluent is forced out of the bottom of the pump, through the joker valve, and off down the line. But when the joker valve becomes worn and/or there's a buildup of sea water minerals on it, it can no longer seal tightly on the upstroke of the piston...less vacuum is generated when you pump it. And as it becomes more worn less and less vacuum, till finally the bowl contents simply move up and down a bit, but don't go anywhere. Which is why the joker valve should be replaced annually. Sometimes the flapper valve needs to be replaced too, which is why toilets should also be rebuilt at least every 5-6 years as PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE.

Thanks peggy. I replaced the joker valve about a month ago. My vented loop is between the pump and the bowl because putting it between the pump and the hull introduced a valve in the suction preventing it from working without my thumb on the vent. So now the pump has to push the water up the loop before going into the bowl so I think it makes sense that it added some resistance to the pumping. What I can't figure out is why there is more resistance when pumping the bowl dry, unless the flapper valve in the pump doesn't deal correctly.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I want to install a vented loop on the raw water intake for my head

Uhm, Patrick, I know you frequent this forum. so I would think you'd already read Peggie's multiple posts that indicate that this is NOT where you do this. You do it between the head pump and the bowl, NOT the intake hose from the thru hull to the pump. Peggie continues to mention why the intake line is NOT the place for a vented loop and why not. It is also covered in just about every single head manufactures' instruction manuals.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

You got into this thread late, Stu...he's already put the loop in the right place. We're now trying to figure out why that's causing the toilet to be harder to flush.

Patrick, as I posted above, it's entirely possible that the toilet needs a new flapper valve....or maybe even a complete rebuild. If it's a Jabsco, a new pump is so close the price of a kit, it'll be easier to just replace the pump. Or, no matter which head your have, if it's more than 10 years old, you have the excuse you need to upgrade to a "stronger" toilet. A new Raritan PH SuperFlush Raritan PH SuperFlush is about the same price as a PHII/PHC LBA and worth every penny.

 

[patrickkidd]

You got into this thread late, Stu...he's already put the loop in the right place. We're now trying to figure out why that's causing the toilet to be harder to flush.

Patrick, as I posted above, it's entirely possible that the toilet needs a new flapper valve....or maybe even a complete rebuild. If it's a Jabsco, a new pump is so close the price of a kit, it'll be easier to just replace the pump. Or, no matter which head your have, if it's more than 10 years old, you have the excuse you need to upgrade to a "stronger" toilet. A new Raritan PH SuperFlush Raritan PH SuperFlush is about the same price as a PHII/PHC LBA and worth every penny.

Thanks for the info Peggy. I'm living on this boat now so maybe a nicer toilet is in the cards in the future. Too bad they don't sell that valve, seems like a no-brainer part to replace. It's even easier to access than the joker valve.

 

[Stu Jackson]

You got into this thread late, Stu...

Oops, sorry, glad to see you got him covered. Enjoy Tampa.