The beauty of my profession is you pay me whether you agree with me or not.
everyone pays. Bay Man out!
When are you a "power driven vessel"?
- Thread starter charliegrau
- Start date
everyone pays. Bay Man out!
Yeah, reading a book, or taking a licensing class is no substitute for common sense and sea-time under a master.
My last comment because 78 replies here is enough. The first question is over ROW - when is a sailboat a power driven vessel and when is it a sailing vessel. My answer above to that is absolutely correct (my attorney confidence at work) and depends on whether the engine is actually being used to power the boat. The next question is if there is a collision, who will be guilty of not using an available opportunity to avoid that collision. On that question, if the sailboat with engine on but in neutral could have avoided the collision by puting it in gear then he should have. For that matter, if a sailing vessell could have avoided a collision by starting the engine and putting it in gear, he should have. The boat with the ultimate ROW still has to make an attempt to avoid a collision if he can. But none of that changes who has the ROW when two boats are approaching at 300 yards. For that you go back to the analysis of powerdriven vs sailing, etc. At 300 yards, I cant hear your engine or see your exhaust. I see sails or I dont. I see you moving or I dont. Sails up and you are moving, I treat you as a sailing vessell. Now if you have your engine engaged you know that you are really a power driven vessell and I would expect you to make a move that indicates to me that you are giving way and that I can stand on. Now, if I can just get everyone to send me your addresses I will have my bills issued promptly.
INTERNATIONAL & INLAND
RULE 7
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
So the stand on vessel is just as wrong as the give way vessel in an accident if they do not make every effort to avoid a collision.
Always helm like everyone else is an idiot and completely oblivious to the rules. You'll usually be right and occasionally pleasantly surprised.
Wow...quite a "windfall" of responses! I thought this topic might generate a lot of thought and discussion. So, as the OP, I'd like to thank everyone for their interest. Here's what I have gleaned from the discussions:
When you are actually being propelled my machinery, you are unquestionably a power driven vessel. That is clearly required by the COLREGs.
Your lights and dayshapes indicate to vessels in sight how they should expect you to behave in head-on, crossing, and overtaking situations.
If you have your engine running, ready to put in gear, and intend to operate your vessel as a power driven vessel, then you should display power driven vessel lights and shape so others will know what to expect.
If you have your engine running to charge batteries, but you intend to remain under sail and act like a sailboat then you are under sail you should display those lights/shapes. Again, other boats within sight then know what to expect from you and can act accordingly.
My logic here is that boats with electrical propulsion available at the flip of a switch would not be considered power driven vessels unless they are actually being propelled by the engine. Yet power is even more readily available that with an engine running ni neutral. So, the intent of the operator is key.
Not under command. The COLREGS don't list what "circumstances" justify use of the NUC lights/shapes. The NUC lights and shapes signal to other boats that you are not going maneuver as required by the rules. Other boats have to take that on face value and act accordingly. If there is an incident and the not under command circumstances are due to operator negligence, carelessness, bad judgment,etc..., that is for the court to decide. In the case of a solo sailor sleeping, the not under command issue is separate from the failure to stand an appropriate watch issue. He could be correct in his use of NUC, but incorrect in his watchkeeping and in taking action outside the rule when in extremis in order to avoid collision.
I saw the reference to BOATUS online course saying that if the engine is running you are powerboat...I have sent them an e:mail asking them to clarify the apparent conflict with the COLREGS. I'll let you know what they say.
The COLREGS establish a framework that sets requirements for lights, shapes, and behaviour that help set expectations so we can operate safely. In all cases the captain has to decide the most prudent course of action, and not set false expectation. And, of course, you can use the radio and talk to the other guy.
When you are actually being propelled my machinery, you are unquestionably a power driven vessel. That is clearly required by the COLREGs.
Your lights and dayshapes indicate to vessels in sight how they should expect you to behave in head-on, crossing, and overtaking situations.
If you have your engine running, ready to put in gear, and intend to operate your vessel as a power driven vessel, then you should display power driven vessel lights and shape so others will know what to expect.
If you have your engine running to charge batteries, but you intend to remain under sail and act like a sailboat then you are under sail you should display those lights/shapes. Again, other boats within sight then know what to expect from you and can act accordingly.
My logic here is that boats with electrical propulsion available at the flip of a switch would not be considered power driven vessels unless they are actually being propelled by the engine. Yet power is even more readily available that with an engine running ni neutral. So, the intent of the operator is key.
Not under command. The COLREGS don't list what "circumstances" justify use of the NUC lights/shapes. The NUC lights and shapes signal to other boats that you are not going maneuver as required by the rules. Other boats have to take that on face value and act accordingly. If there is an incident and the not under command circumstances are due to operator negligence, carelessness, bad judgment,etc..., that is for the court to decide. In the case of a solo sailor sleeping, the not under command issue is separate from the failure to stand an appropriate watch issue. He could be correct in his use of NUC, but incorrect in his watchkeeping and in taking action outside the rule when in extremis in order to avoid collision.
I saw the reference to BOATUS online course saying that if the engine is running you are powerboat...I have sent them an e:mail asking them to clarify the apparent conflict with the COLREGS. I'll let you know what they say.
The COLREGS establish a framework that sets requirements for lights, shapes, and behaviour that help set expectations so we can operate safely. In all cases the captain has to decide the most prudent course of action, and not set false expectation. And, of course, you can use the radio and talk to the other guy.
I trust you are not calling me an idiot. Nevertheless, I hope you make your intentions clearer when at the helm of your vessel.If it is me you see with sails up and you hear my engine or see wet exhaust, it may be my genny which exhaust right beside where the main does. Of course I am going to assume you are an idiot
He didn't call anyone an idiot he just assumes it of everyone, prudence is the safest course of action.
I am not saying anyone on here is an idiot. Yes I make my intentions clear and as early as possible. Then I assume the worst and watch to see what the response is. If someone doesn't know the rules, I am not going to risk an incident or damage because I had the ROW.He didn't call anyone an idiot he just assumes it of everyone, prudence is the safest course of action.
With but a single exception, the Colregs do not grant "right of way" to anybody. That is, they do not grant privileges but specify responsibilities, whether to stand on or to give way. See point 5 at this link: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesFAQ#0.3_5
I received a response from BOATUS. My e:mail and their response is posted below. (with permission from the sender)
From:"Ted Sensenbrenner" <teds@BOATUS.com>
Date:Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:28
Subject:RE: COLREGS Rule 3
Charlie – Thank you for bringing this to our attention. You are right.
COLREGS rule 3(c) goes to your point: “Sailing Vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
So a sail boat, idling/not in gear to recharge batteries, etc, is indeed still a sailing vessel.
I propose this language and will make the change:
“Remember, if the engine is on and is being used to propel the sailboat, regardless if sails are up, it is to be considered a powerboat.”
Thanks, Ted
From: Charlie Grau [mailto:cbum100@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 4:13 PM
To: _Boatingsafety
Subject: COLREGS Rule 3
The BOATUS online safety course contains the following statement:
"Sailing Vessel - Any vessel under sail alone. Remember; the engine only has to be on for a sailboat to be considered a powerboat."
COLREGS rule 3(b) says:
"(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery."
This appears to be a conflict. If a sailboat is using the engine to charge batteries, for instance, but is propelled by sails and intends to maneuver as a sailboat, shouldn't sailing definitions apply?
From:"Ted Sensenbrenner" <teds@BOATUS.com>
Date:Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:28
Subject:RE: COLREGS Rule 3
Charlie – Thank you for bringing this to our attention. You are right.
COLREGS rule 3(c) goes to your point: “Sailing Vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
So a sail boat, idling/not in gear to recharge batteries, etc, is indeed still a sailing vessel.
I propose this language and will make the change:
“Remember, if the engine is on and is being used to propel the sailboat, regardless if sails are up, it is to be considered a powerboat.”
Thanks, Ted
From: Charlie Grau [mailto:cbum100@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 4:13 PM
To: _Boatingsafety
Subject: COLREGS Rule 3
The BOATUS online safety course contains the following statement:
"Sailing Vessel - Any vessel under sail alone. Remember; the engine only has to be on for a sailboat to be considered a powerboat."
COLREGS rule 3(b) says:
"(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery."
This appears to be a conflict. If a sailboat is using the engine to charge batteries, for instance, but is propelled by sails and intends to maneuver as a sailboat, shouldn't sailing definitions apply?
I would have to dig up my book from a few years ago, but it was when I was doing the ASA certification through a local sailing group.
I appreciate your perspective, however, as the OP, I wasn't asking what was in the COLREGs. I asked what others thought....how they understood the rules.
According to the USCG definition,
Now obviously, if you're sailing along running the engine to charge your batteries and it's spewing out exhaust, you run the risk of being misconstrued as being under power. At that point some common sense and courtesy to others goes a long way.
So it's the act of being propelled by the motor, not merely having it running.
Now obviously, if you're sailing along running the engine to charge your batteries and it's spewing out exhaust, you run the risk of being misconstrued as being under power. At that point some common sense and courtesy to others goes a long way.