Exactly as it is in any Captain class. Most people have never actually used charts the way the CG requires, so that's the hardest. Next is Rules because you have no wiggle room. NavGen, DeckGen and Safety are pretty easy. Most of the stuff you should already know, the rest you can look up.
When are you a "power driven vessel"?
- Thread starter charliegrau
- Start date
That's the whole point of this discussion. The situation is not really mentioned on the Rules, so it's left to interpretation. The only venue that counts is court after the collision, and I'm pretty sure they would rule that you should have put her on her and gotten out of the way. IMO, power driven.
It may be entertaining to argue these fine points here, but don't forget the whole point is safety and survival. I don't argue right of way while riding my motorcycle. I don't really care how big a settlement my widow gets.
Of course there is the final rule that all other rules are tossed out if you have the last clear chance to avoid a collision.
But these rules are viewed from the point of view,of both boats. If I see you with your sails up and moving I regard you as and sailing vessel. If I see you without sails and moving you are a power driven vessel.
Isn't one of the reason racers leave the jib down while motoring with the main before the race sequence starts is to let others know they are a power driven vessel at that point?
This response misses the whole point that maneuverability is what establishes your place in the pecking order. A sailboat with sails up and engine on in neutral only has to but the engine in gear to have increased maneuverability over other sailboats. That's why it would be considered a power-driven vessel in the pecking order.
Propulsion determines RoW, sail v. power in the case at hand. Don't conflate this with COLREGS re: vessel maneuverability.
Correct. In a court of law this will hold up...
there is no double standard for different boats that have the engine running just because one has sails and the other doesnt sails...
If you dont have an engine in the boat, or if you do have an engine, but its not running, no one will care or will argue why...
but if the engine is running and the machinery is immediatley available for use, it will absolutely be found to be a power driven vessel.... no matter if the transmission was in gear at the moment or if the sails were full or flogging in the wind.... or if the boat does not even have a stitch of sails on it.
If the engine is being used and is available, it can not be argued that "I didnt want to put it in gear because i thought the other boat would move away and avert the accident"... or, "yes, my engine was running, but i had the rightaway over the other sailboat that was bearing down on me"...
The lawyers should be able to clearly see the reasoning in this...
Nope, that's so you don't flog the Captain's new $5,000 laminate genny on the way to the start line.
The way the USCG has treated a couple of Pan Pans in the last couple of days in the great UP (sector Soo) is just sickening and nothing short of embarrassing for them. The LAST thing they do is look at a chart. And their radio work was atrocious. But that is another thread.
Yep, Never flog the Captains jib and some things defy clarity, is it a powerboat undersail or a sailboat underpower ?
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You are 100% wrong per the COLREGS. RULE 3. General Definitions. (f) The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel;
The words "exceptional circumstance" are the key and definitely do not cover your need to pee or sleep. As a matter of fact when you sleep you are breaking one of the most cardinal of rules and that is RULE3 PART B STEERING AND SAILING RULES Subpart I Conduct of Vessels in Any Condition of Visibility RULE 5 Look-out
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.
So technically you should never be solo and asleep. I know tons of people have and will continue to do it but if the have a collision they are 100% at fault.
Your telling me you have two all around red lights that you have installed at the top of your mast "where they can best be seen"(so that they are in fact all around and not constricted by your mast and stays) just so you can display them when you sleep? I'd love a picture of that!
Imagine his sunrise when the CG comes over to render assistance (the boat is disabled, correct?), and finds that he simply doesn't care to pay attention right now. Hmm.... I think there will be an expensive lecture handed out.
75 replies isn't enough. Forgive me if someone else may have said this ...
You see a vessel with sails hoisted. You hear his engine or see his wet exhaust. Is he in gear or not? You don't know.
Best to do what is safest. If I am that vessel I will act as a power boat whether I'm in gear or not. If I am the other boat I will assume he is a power boat who may act as a sailboat and take nothing for granted.
You see a vessel with sails hoisted. You hear his engine or see his wet exhaust. Is he in gear or not? You don't know.
Best to do what is safest. If I am that vessel I will act as a power boat whether I'm in gear or not. If I am the other boat I will assume he is a power boat who may act as a sailboat and take nothing for granted.
If it is me you see with sails up and you hear my engine or see wet exhaust, it may be my genny which exhaust right beside where the main does. Of course I am going to assume you are an idiot
and keep an eye on you and do whatever I have to to avoid a collision regardless if I technically have ROW.
My last comment because 78 replies here is enough.
The first question is over ROW - when is a sailboat a power driven vessel and when is it a sailing vessel. My answer above to that is absolutely correct (my attorney confidence at work) and depends on whether the engine is actually being used to power the boat.
The next question is if there is a collision, who will be guilty of not using an available opportunity to avoid that collision. On that question, if the sailboat with engine on but in neutral could have avoided the collision by puting it in gear then he should have. For that matter, if a sailing vessell could have avoided a collision by starting the engine and putting it in gear, he should have. The boat with the ultimate ROW still has to make an attempt to avoid a collision if he can. But none of that changes who has the ROW when two boats are approaching at 300 yards. For that you go back to the analysis of powerdriven vs sailing, etc. At 300 yards, I cant hear your engine or see your exhaust. I see sails or I dont. I see you moving or I dont. Sails up and you are moving, I treat you as a sailing vessell. Now if you have your engine engaged you know that you are really a power driven vessell and I would expect you to make a move that indicates to me that you are giving way and that I can stand on.
Now, if I can just get everyone to send me your addresses I will have my bills issued promptly.
The first question is over ROW - when is a sailboat a power driven vessel and when is it a sailing vessel. My answer above to that is absolutely correct (my attorney confidence at work) and depends on whether the engine is actually being used to power the boat.
The next question is if there is a collision, who will be guilty of not using an available opportunity to avoid that collision. On that question, if the sailboat with engine on but in neutral could have avoided the collision by puting it in gear then he should have. For that matter, if a sailing vessell could have avoided a collision by starting the engine and putting it in gear, he should have. The boat with the ultimate ROW still has to make an attempt to avoid a collision if he can. But none of that changes who has the ROW when two boats are approaching at 300 yards. For that you go back to the analysis of powerdriven vs sailing, etc. At 300 yards, I cant hear your engine or see your exhaust. I see sails or I dont. I see you moving or I dont. Sails up and you are moving, I treat you as a sailing vessell. Now if you have your engine engaged you know that you are really a power driven vessell and I would expect you to make a move that indicates to me that you are giving way and that I can stand on.
Now, if I can just get everyone to send me your addresses I will have my bills issued promptly.
If I agreed with everything you said I'd pay my share. And for the record, I agree with most of what you said. But I still wonder if anyone other than Woodster actually learned anything in this thread.Now, if I can just get everyone to send me your addresses I will have my bills issued promptly.